For me it's definitely about weight, but weight loss (muscle mass). At peak rower I was ~200lbs (6'4"), very low bodyfat. As a masters cyclist I'm 170lb., or about the same weight I was as a collegiate track runner.

DFW_Tri is right, when doing a 500m "sprint" (technically not a sprint, but in rowing terms it is), I simply cannot generate the older power numbers without that muscle mass. And even though I haven't tried, I assume gaining back that 30lbs. of muscle is impossible at age 50 (without cheating).

For running, it's odd. I'm still a "good" runner - have the same ingrained muscle memory and efficient stride. But high end leg speed is just *gone*. A 5:00/mile pace, which was quick but well slower than 1500 race pace, feels impossible now. I can't hit that for 100m. A 2K erg time is a rough equivalent to a 1500m/mile, and while I've lost around 30 seconds in my 2K, I assume I've lost about a minute in the mile. I haven't exactly tried, but I think getting under 5:00 would be a serious challenge, if not impossible.

5K runs and longer, I think the loss is less.

So probably the common factor in both is peak power generation, even though with running it *feels* like neuromuscular leg speed limitations.

Do you think in running the mile it is push off force down, meaning speed is down because distance per stride is down versus cadence going down? In rowing too, is it force per stroke that is down?

I’ve only ever been on a rowing machine a handful of times and not at all in the last 10 years, but before Christmas I hopped on the concept 2 rowing machines during lunch at the work gym to try 2000m for something different:

- 6.57.8
- 6.50.0
- 6.41.8

I observed:
- The amount of time for a 2000m row (thankfully) feels very short (because it is) vs a 20 min FTP test or a fast 5km, it’s very tough but nowhere near the suffering of a 20 min FTP
- My back muscles severely ached for a few days the first time, but virtually not at all after the 3rd time
- It was easy to cut the time purely through pacing better
- It’s quite a fun way to hammer yourself when you are short on time
- The overlap with cycling didn’t feel very direct, I felt like my quads did nothing but my hamstrings were working very hard

My suspicion is that sub 6.20 (1.35/500) would be quickly achievable with some pointers on technique and a few weeks of training, but sub 6.00 is probably a whole different league….

I'm not sure it's as simple as one or the other. In running I cannot achieve 60-second/400m speed, impossible for me to say whether it's because of cadence or distance-per-stride. They're both lower than what's necessary for that kind of speed.

Same with rowing. In a 500m "sprint" I cannot reach the ~40 stroke rates with full power, and I'm certainly not pulling as hard in the initial 4-5 strokes it'd take to build to that 40 cadence with 30lbs. less muscle.

Overall it's "power" that's missing, which affects both cadence and stroke/stride force application.

Those are solid n00b 2K times!

Perception of time passing is interesting. I'm not sure I agree with you about 2Ks. The genuinely all-out 2Ks I did in college were just exquisitely painful, with time seemingly stopping, and the bulk of it righ tup against your tolerance to handle pain. I simply don't want to go there again. On my recent 2K efforts I went hard AF - laying flat on the ground to recover after - but very intentionally did not take myself to places I did in college. Those places likely only buy you a second or three - very little payoff for the massive increase in pain. A 20-minute FTP test sucks, but you have to be backed off slightly from that same threshold or else you can't make it 20 minutes without fading.

In the game theory of time vs. pain, I feel there's no winning. The shorter the interval, the more acute the pain. In track running, an all-out 800m was to me psychologically harder than a 1500m.

Interesting - the logic certainly makes sense and it is the case that 2000m is a different experience to 20 min FTP, in the sense it’s all of your muscles screaming and not just your legs / lungs.

But what I find with a 20 min FTP (I incidentally did one yesterday) is basically that holding target power for 5 minutes seems like a very tough challenge in itself, you then desperately try to maintain it for the next 15 mins of pain.

Another explanation is that I don’t have the technique / all rounded capability to unlock the ultimate 2000m row pain zone.

Is there a path to close the gap on your previous times/average power with a bit less force per stroke but a higher stroke rate. It's not like you're trying to transfer what you are doing to water, it's really just a fitness and wattage test on the erg that you're in right now, so can you just go up to 45 strokes per minute, maybe on a lower damper setting, on slightly less force per stroke and just close the gap ?

I don't think there's any trick like that. Long, powerful strokes are efficient. Sort of like running, you do enough meters, and you naturally fall into your most efficient cadence. Forcing yourself to deviate from that is usually costly.

If I were to try to close the gap, I'd try to put on muscle (sigh, 50 y.o.) with max force work, and do a lot of "easy" meters to build metabolic efficiency. Polarized training, basically.

When your 6k pace becomes your 2k pace (on a really good day)... you've not yet "fallen off the edge" of old age.

Ratings are the same. Drag factor is the same. Splits not so much...

---

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

Ha, I hadn't thought of the 6K/2K thing, but I think that's where I am right now. Back In The Day (tm), my 6K goal was to never see a 1:4X. Now my 2K goal is to never see a 1:4X.

And you're right, it's not off a cliff. That'll be when getting under 2:00 for any length of time is a problem.

I think you should re adjust your mindset and go by wattage and spefically wattage per kilo, which would then set a more reasonable baseline off your 200 lbs days.

So if you were 1:20 per 500m at 200 lbs

= 683 Watts /(200 lbs/2.2 lbs per kg) = 7.513 W per kg

based on this and your current 170 lbs, your target with zero degradation due to age would be

7,513 W per kg/ (200/170) = 6.386 W per kg,

meaning your target wattage for 500m is now

6.386 W per kg x (170/2.2)kg = 493W

using this wattage target you get a target PACE of 1:29

In essence this suggest you lost nothing aerobically per kilo.

Samesies. But at 74kg in the winter, I was usually seeing more 1:41s than 1:39s.
My 2k goal is to never do a 2k erg test again. 20 years of them—:06/500m faster than 6k pace—was plenty.

---

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

A little background: I have dabbled in rowing on the Concept2 for 30+ years, typically just 1-2x per week as an actual workout in the off-season, and in-season maybe 2000-2500m easy row to warmup for a run or strength session. Since upgrading my C2 model C with a PM5 monitor last Oct, I have been doing the C2-organized WOD on average once per week. My typical strokes per min are between 25-30 with drag factor around 125-130. I am a lightweight tri-geek at 155 pounds.

Now my question for the experts: If a WOD has an interval set with perhaps 6 x 2-3 minute intervals with 1 min rest and then the next day has shorter intervals like 20x45s with 45s rest interval, should I look at adjusting the damper settings to adjust the drag factor or increase cadence or a combination of both? And should my technique change such as going for a longer stroke depending on the interval duration or trying to get a higher cadence or any other suggestions?

@Kid

Drag factor is too high. Rating is too high for 3min, too low for :45. And no.

---

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

What drag factor would you recommend? I was going from memory: checked it today and was at 118.

Also when you refer to "rating", is that strokes/min?

Thanks,
@Kid

This OK for a 70kg athlete.
Yes.

---

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

Jumping in on this discussion if that’s ok Dev.
Taking another direction in getting fit this winter and have been rowing for the last 2 months on the Concept 2.
68 yr old male road cyclist (recovering from a bad crash last summer ) and previously in my running life a 2.39 marathoner .
Can you explain slowing stroke rate down to improve and why damper setting in the lower setting is beneficial for improving rowing .
Currently using the C2 3/4 times a week and up to 5,000 at low 27mins but with a 29 stroke rate .

Sward,

Did you perhaps typo that pace. If my math isn't letting me down. 27 minutes for 5000m = 2.7m per 500 or 2:42/500 which is only ~ 82 watts. I suspect that's a typo in there.

Off to row my daily 15,000;)

---

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.