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Re: BWR Setup [jakers] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for reply and sorry to hear about your trouble. Talking about ‘eating a lot’ late in the race sounds like a likely issue.

For me, if my stomach turns I stay with water for a while and it will usually stabilize. I didn’t like the SIS drink they were serving ( to be fair I think it was hastily mixed and proportions were off) I quit drinking it after the mid-point and stayed with known nutrition.

" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978
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Re: BWR Setup [TriDevilDog] [ In reply to ]
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I've been down this road before a few times, and I stuck with water and a some pretzyls, bananas and coke to keep me going from way out of Black Canyon on. Otherwise water was what I could take. I drank enough, no cramping and my legs were fine, but I'm a bigger guy (6'3 and about 195ish). I need to eat a lot to keep the motor running.

After not having a lot for about 40 miles I was running on empty and just getting from aid station to aid station. I threw up at mile 90 something, which I felt much better after. I was just in a shortage of calories to burn. I ate at the next aid station and felt ok. But I know when my body is saying to stop and I had pushed way past that hoping I would come around to being good again.

It was really hard to drop that far in to the race, but I know what was left and ride that several times a week. It was no slouch of a final 25-30 miles. It was the right call.

Back to the drawing board. I didn't drink the SIS stuff. I tried a cup of it early on and it was no good.

jake

Get outside!
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Re: BWR Setup [jakers] [ In reply to ]
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have you ever tried a sodium load? Meaning a pre-load in advance of the race.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Last edited by: Rappstar: Apr 17, 18 10:46
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Re: BWR Setup [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I have not, but something I am looking in to.

I tried the Skratch Hyper Hydration before IMNZ and that didn't work too well, but I think that had something to do with drinking it too close tot he start of the swim and possibly drinking a good bit of water on the swim.

Salt is for sure something that I think I need to address.

jake

Get outside!
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Re: BWR Setup [TriDevilDog] [ In reply to ]
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It did seem super-concentrated from a sweetness/flavor profile (at least compared to my Infinit custom mix), so I wonder about the osmolality and carb heaviness. Anecdotally, I think the worst I felt all day stomach-wise was around mile 95, which was right after I had taken down two of the BWR hand-up bottles of SIS in fairly short order. I definitely tried to alternate between plain water and SIS from that point on, and toward the end I was taking in water bottles only, as I could tell I had stayed on top of my nutrition/sodium and really was just trying to hydrate.
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Re: BWR Setup [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Great learning experience and a lot of fun for me. (Fingers crossed on the KOM jersey - I'm the "provisional" winner as of now.)

Stuff I got right:
- Gearing: 46x10/42 was perfect. This was the one thing that I really nailed. I never wanted more gearing than I had and I used the full range with ease.

- Nutrition/hydration. I ate and drank a lot. And early. And I rode strong through the end. That SiS stuff on course was really nice too. Much better than at some races. I certainly prefer First Endurance, but I thought the SiS stuff was first rate. No complaints about on course support by any means.

- Clothing. Arm warmers and vest to start, but dressed for heat under that. LG summer/climbers jersey (it's basically mesh) and a super light sleeveless base layer. When it got hot in the backside, I was fine. Long finger gloves were fine the whole day. But maybe would have done fine and been a bit happier with roadie gloves.

- Glasses. I used Oakley EVZero with Prizm Trail lenses. These are really bright and not the best choice for road riding, but they made up for it in the patchy light on the trails.

- Saddle. I used my gravel/MTB saddle of choice rather than my road saddle of choice, and for sure that helped with steering and bike control.

Stuff I didn't get right:
- Tires. I rode the Zipp RT28 on Zipp 303 tubeless. The tires were great from a durability standpoint. They measure at 29.5mm on the rim, and I ran them at 65psi. They were great for climbing and on the flats, but for me - not being a great dirt bike handler - these were really not ideal on the technical descents. I got totally annihilated on that, and some of that was obviously a lack of experience, but I also think that I could have benefitted with wider tires and/or something with more tread on the side to grip in the corners. I just needed more grip. Especially since I give up a bunch in terms of experience/skill on that stuff but make a lot of it up on the road side, I think something with side knobs and/or more volume would have been - for me - a better choice. The RT28 were amazingly durable and grippy when going up - I only had to get off my bike once, in the rock garden near the end that basically everyone got off for. But they drifted too much for me in the corners at higher speed.

- Navigation. I downloaded the GPX file and set it up as a course and then forgot to load it at race start. Had two minor - and likely inconsequential - navigation errors when I was stuck in no man's land between groups, and I this was just because I forgot to actually load the map. Details matter...

Stuff that I'm undecided on or that was a wash:
- MTB shoes. I basically never needed my MTB shoes and probably would have been happier in my road shoes with speedplays. But this was not really here nor there.

- Position. I rode my road position, which is a bit lower in the front and a bit steeper (though still very slack) as compared with what I ride on my gravel bike. I think a bit more upright position and a bit slacker is better off road (less weight on the front wheel), though I'm still refining this idea in my mind. I ride a fairly "aggressive" road position, and I think this isn't "ideal" for off road, but I doubt it mattered too much.

TL;DR - gearing was good. tires were not ideal. overall, I need to be better at riding on dirt.

Great work out there, Jordan, very impressive ride. I would wear road shoes next time - other than to get over / under gates, the only two times I clipped out were at the water crossing on the way out (which was a mistake, and on the way back I just rolled through) and on the rocky uphill near Lake Hodges on the way back in. Overall I would have been more comfortable in my road shoes.

Tires were a total mistake for me, but one of my own making.

As for saddle, I used my Sworks Romin Road saddle, which fits me like a glove and I have never had any issue, even on 300k rides. But it was a big mistake for BWR - no cushioning and with all the rockiness, chatter, etc., my sit bones (or more accurately, the skin above my sit bones) took a beating. Should have rode my cross saddle or something with a little more cushion.

Definitely a wild experience, one I won’t soon forget.
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Re: BWR Setup [sscott43] [ In reply to ]
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My butt was completely comfortable. Not sure if it was the Specialized Power Elaston that I had on or if it would have been fine anyway.

FWIW, for un-smooth surfaces, a bit lower cadence tends to help float your bottom over the saddle

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: BWR Setup [sscott43] [ In reply to ]
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sscott43 wrote:
As for saddle, I used my Sworks Romin Road saddle, which fits me like a glove and I have never had any issue, even on 300k rides. But it was a big mistake for BWR - no cushioning and with all the rockiness, chatter, etc., my sit bones (or more accurately, the skin above my sit bones) took a beating. Should have rode my cross saddle or something with a little more cushion.

Lower pressures/wider tires will help with the saddle comfort as well ;-)

BTW, the saddle I use on my Fuji "all-road" rig happens to be an Fizik Arionne Tri...which I only used because it was a "take off" from my NP2 purchase a few years ago. However, it turns out that the additional padding, especially on the nose, makes it quite a good "gravel" saddle (at least for me).

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: BWR Setup [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Lol, don’t rub it in on the tire choice - I already admitted my mistake! I rode a healthy part of the day with a guy on 650/47s and he was comfy.
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Re: BWR Setup [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
sscott43 wrote:
As for saddle, I used my Sworks Romin Road saddle, which fits me like a glove and I have never had any issue, even on 300k rides. But it was a big mistake for BWR - no cushioning and with all the rockiness, chatter, etc., my sit bones (or more accurately, the skin above my sit bones) took a beating. Should have rode my cross saddle or something with a little more cushion.

Lower pressures/wider tires will help with the saddle comfort as well ;-)

BTW, the saddle I use on my Fuji "all-road" rig happens to be an Fizik Arionne Tri...which I only used because it was a "take off" from my NP2 purchase a few years ago. However, it turns out that the additional padding, especially on the nose, makes it quite a good "gravel" saddle (at least for me).

The Arionne Tri is actually a fairly popular saddle for gravel it seems. Matt Lieto also uses that as his saddle of choice. I've been using the HC170, but I'm thinking of switching the SHC170 - which was my tri-saddle for many years - as my gravel saddle for some extra padding.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: BWR Setup [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Tom,

I'm trying to mount these tires on my rims now and they are a m*therf&cking SOB to put on. The tire tread rolls out so flat that it's almost impossible to get the other bead in. I need a beer.
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Re: BWR Setup [alexZA] [ In reply to ]
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alexZA wrote:
Hi Tom,

I'm trying to mount these tires on my rims now and they are a m*therf&cking SOB to put on. The tire tread rolls out so flat that it's almost impossible to get the other bead in. I need a beer.


Yeah, the first time on can be hard. I've settled on a technique that works pretty well, and usually doesn't require levers:
1. Find a stool to sit on - seems to go easier with the wheel in your lap. Open beer and take a sip.

2. Put the first bead on. The tire will be laying flat around the rim and you'll think "no effin' way am I getting a tube in there. Take a deep breath, and another drink of beer. Make sure the bead is in the center channel of the rim.

3. Grab the tube and insert the valve in its hole. Now, go around the entire rim and "tuck" the tube in between the rim and the tire as much as you can. It's ok if you see a part of the tube, but try to get as much in there as possible. Doing this first, instead of tucking it in as you put in the 2nd bead (what I normally do with a vulcanized tire) seems to work much better

4. Now, starting opposite the valve hole, grab the tire from the outside of the rim and "fold" it Around the tube so you can now insert the other bead into the rim. Keep doing this in both directions from that starting point and then towards the valve.

5. As you get near the valve with inserting the second bead, double-check that both beads are still in the center channel. This creates the most room for this final bit of bead. Using mostly you palms, carefully "knead" that last remaining bit of bead onto the rim by basically "rolling" it up over the rim edge. Try to avoid using levers...it may take a bit of "kneading", but it's well worth it to avoid puncturing the tube with a lever. If you have a bead jack tool, that works well for this too. Once it's on, push the valve into the tire a bit to make sure it's not trapped under the beads. Take a well-deserved drink of beer.

6. Now, go around the tire on both sides and push the bead back to make sure no part of the tube is trapped under the bead. If there is, "flick" the tire a few times to try to get it up into the tire. Sometimes adding a small bit of air helps. Be patient with this...it's worth it to avoid an exploding tube. Take another drink of beer.

7. Pump the tire up. If it's a tubeless-ready rim, you may have to inflate to a relatively high pressure to get the beads to seat fully.

8. Sit back and finish beer :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: May 10, 18 7:41
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Re: BWR Setup [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Ok that was brilliant advice. Thanks very much.
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Re: BWR Setup [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
alexZA wrote:
Hi Tom,

I'm trying to mount these tires on my rims now and they are a m*therf&cking SOB to put on. The tire tread rolls out so flat that it's almost impossible to get the other bead in. I need a beer.


Yeah, the first time on can be hard. I've settled on a technique that works pretty well, and usually doesn't require levers:
1. Find a stool to sit on - seems to go easier with the wheel in your lap. Open beer and take a sip.

2. Put the first bead on. The tire will be laying flat around the rim and you'll think "no effin' way am I getting a tube in there. Take a deep breath, and another drink of beer. Make sure the bead is in the center channel of the rim.

3. Grab the tube and insert the valve in its hole. Now, go around the entire rim and "tuck" the tube in between the rim and the tire as much as you can. It's ok if you see a part of the tube, but try to get as much in there as possible. Doing this first, instead of tucking it in as you put in the 2nd bead (what I normally do with a vulcanized tire) seems to work much better

4. Now, starting opposite the valve hole, grab the tire from the outside of the rim and "fold" it Around the tube so you can now insert the other bead into the rim. Keep doing this in both directions from that starting point and then towards the valve.

5. As you get near the valve with inserting the second bead, double-check that both beads are still in the center channel. This creates the most room for this final bit of bead. Using mostly you palms, carefully "knead" that last remaining bit of bead onto the rim by basically "rolling" it up over the rim edge. Try to avoid using levers...it may take a bit of "kneading", but it's well worth it to avoid puncturing the tube with a lever. If you have a bead jack tool, that works well for this too. Once it's on, push the valve into the tire a bit to make sure it's not trapped under the beads. Take a well-deserved drink of beer.

6. Now, go around the tire on both sides and push the bead back to make sure no part of the tube is trapped under the bead. If there is, "flick" the tire a few times to try to get it up into the tire. Sometimes adding a small bit of air helps. Be patient with this...it's worth it to avoid an exploding tube. Take another drink of beer.

7. Pump the tire up. If it's a tubeless-ready rim, you may have to inflate to a relatively high pressure to get the beads to seat fully.

8. Sit back and finish beer :-)

Step 1 and 8 are great. As are the others. And with all these virtuoso skills you couldn't get the Schwalbe S-One 30 on? Don't worry, after my BWR experience I've sworn those off forever. The Donnelly CDG 30s on the other hand....?
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Re: BWR Setup [sscott43] [ In reply to ]
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Anecdote: I'm in a tubeless experimentation phase right now. Just mounted up an S-works Tubeless 28mm on to a Belgium+ rim. Got the tire on with just a touch more effort than a normal clincher. Had the tire mounted and seated within two minutes. Measured width inflated is 31mm. I also have a Specialized Roubaix 30/32 that I'm trying to mount to a Belgium+ rim. I could barely get the first bead on and the 2nd bead looks impossible to mount. I suspect a lot of this comes down to variations in the bsd from rim to rim, tire to tire. Millimeters seem to really matter to tubeless tires.

My hope is that Mavic's Road UST standard catches on... so long as someone makes tires to the dimensional spec without the butyl liner.
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Re: BWR Setup [sscott43] [ In reply to ]
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That's the difference between tubeless-ready beads and regular beads...plus, it not being my tire ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: BWR Setup [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Anecdote: I'm in a tubeless experimentation phase right now. Just mounted up an S-works Tubeless 28mm on to a Belgium+ rim. Got the tire on with just a touch more effort than a normal clincher. Had the tire mounted and seated within two minutes. Measured width inflated is 31mm. I also have a Specialized Roubaix 30/32 that I'm trying to mount to a Belgium+ rim. I could barely get the first bead on and the 2nd bead looks impossible to mount. I suspect a lot of this comes down to variations in the bsd from rim to rim, tire to tire. Millimeters seem to really matter to tubeless tires.

My hope is that Mavic's Road UST standard catches on... so long as someone makes tires to the dimensional spec without the butyl liner.

In my experience, the first bead always goes on better if:
1. First place the rim inside the tire so that each tire bead is outside it's respective rim-flange.
2. Pull bead from outside of rim-flange onto rim with the inner surface of the tire dragging over the flange.
I'll refer to this as Left (Bead) over Left (Rim) and Right over Right

This is different from home many people mount tires in that they just start putting the tire on such that the "left" tire bead is pull over the Right rim flange and then the right tire bead is pulled over the right rim flange.

Additionally, when mounting tubeless tires the "twist" method is where it's at.

1. Mount first bead as I suggest (left over left, right over right)
2. Follow Tom's advice above.

3. When you get to that point where the bead does not want to go over the rim flange try this (ie: never use a tire lever again):
a. Kneel or Squat
b. Hold wheel vertically in front of you, such that it is perpendicular with the unmounted bead at the top of the wheel and facing away from you (cannot see the bead)
c. Place your right hand near the right edge of the unmounted bead
d. As your grasp the tire/rim combination, place the "callouses of your palm" just underneath the unmounted bead. The natural fold in your palm will act like a hook.
e. While gripping the tire and rim tightly, rotate your hand (like a motorcycle throttle) such that you are twisting the bead up and over the rim flange
f. Move hand and repeat until bead fully on.

*can be done with tubed tires, just be carefully to not damage the tube

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: BWR Setup [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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xtrpickels wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Anecdote: I'm in a tubeless experimentation phase right now. Just mounted up an S-works Tubeless 28mm on to a Belgium+ rim. Got the tire on with just a touch more effort than a normal clincher. Had the tire mounted and seated within two minutes. Measured width inflated is 31mm. I also have a Specialized Roubaix 30/32 that I'm trying to mount to a Belgium+ rim. I could barely get the first bead on and the 2nd bead looks impossible to mount. I suspect a lot of this comes down to variations in the bsd from rim to rim, tire to tire. Millimeters seem to really matter to tubeless tires.

My hope is that Mavic's Road UST standard catches on... so long as someone makes tires to the dimensional spec without the butyl liner.


In my experience, the first bead always goes on better if:
1. First place the rim inside the tire so that each tire bead is outside it's respective rim-flange.
2. Pull bead from outside of rim-flange onto rim with the inner surface of the tire dragging over the flange.
I'll refer to this as Left (Bead) over Left (Rim) and Right over Right

This is different from home many people mount tires in that they just start putting the tire on such that the "left" tire bead is pull over the Right rim flange and then the right tire bead is pulled over the right rim flange.

Additionally, when mounting tubeless tires the "twist" method is where it's at.

1. Mount first bead as I suggest (left over left, right over right)
2. Follow Tom's advice above.

3. When you get to that point where the bead does not want to go over the rim flange try this (ie: never use a tire lever again):
a. Kneel or Squat
b. Hold wheel vertically in front of you, such that it is perpendicular with the unmounted bead at the top of the wheel and facing away from you (cannot see the bead)
c. Place your right hand near the right edge of the unmounted bead
d. As your grasp the tire/rim combination, place the "callouses of your palm" just underneath the unmounted bead. The natural fold in your palm will act like a hook.
e. While gripping the tire and rim tightly, rotate your hand (like a motorcycle throttle) such that you are twisting the bead up and over the rim flange
f. Move hand and repeat until bead fully on.

*can be done with tubed tires, just be carefully to not damage the tube

That's about what I do to get tight tires on. I've mounted dozens and dozens of tires at this point. In the case of the Specialized Roubaix tubeless I literally can't even get the first bead on.
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