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Re: NSA Spying on America [last tri in 83] [ In reply to ]
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WASHINGTON DESK - Presidential candidate, Bob Dole(R) criticized the Clinton White House on Saturday for improperly using confidential FBI files for political purposes. At issue are FBI files on more than 300 Republicans.White House chief of staff Leon Panetta, appearing on NBC's Meet the Press Sunday, called the files fiasco an "inexcusable" mistake. The Wall Street Journal today called the FBI flap an "inexcusable" blunder by Chief of Staff Leon Panetta.

And, next, the "But Clinton..." defense. Who would have guessed?

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Re: NSA Spying on America [rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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I see your point about accountability. I have to admit that I was giving them the benefit of the doubt that they were justified in spying on each person. Having worked with and around government people, you would think that I would have learned that not everyone doing their job is actually good at it.

Maybe I should amend my comments to say that I don't mind them spying IN America as long as there is some judicial oversight.


You leave yourself an escape with the "some" judicial oversight. Either you have oversight or you do not. would you then be critical of just 'who' is a part of the judicial oversight committee or 'how many?'

Tough question but, then you get into how long, when, why. And as you, I work with government people and I agree with your "not everyone doing their job is ... good at it."

- kd

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Re: NSA Spying on America [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Casey, I don't disagree but doesn't some of the fault for this rest with him, the NYT and his publisher for timing the two? They knew this would come up as soon as people figured it out. You can't just blame the other side
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Re: NSA Spying on America [5280] [ In reply to ]
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Casey, I don't disagree

Sorry, not quite good enough to be on my signature line. I'm sure you're disappointed.

but doesn't some of the fault for this rest with him, the NYT and his publisher for timing the two?

Yes. Very poor timing.

You can't just blame the other side

There are no sides, both parties have been jumping on opportunities like this and it really makes open dialog on important and tough issues difficult. On this, no party has a monopoly.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: NSA Spying on America [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I was presenting a hypothetical that questioned the value of a net spread too widely. Also, the quote you have above from the article ends with "at any given time".


Understood, but those numbers don't show me a wide net but a focused beam. I would bet the 500 stays largely the same with only small changes over time.
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Re: NSA Spying on America [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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There are no sides, both parties have been jumping on opportunities like this and it really makes open dialog on important and tough issues difficult. On this, no party has a monopoly.

True, but if I had a story that was of this magnitude I would not want to cloud it with the fact I was pimping a new book. Let the story stand on its own or don't put it in the NYT and publish your book.
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Re: NSA Spying on America [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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What tiring attacks? To me its the same old NYTtrick of not telling the whole story.
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Re: NSA Spying on America [tritnow] [ In reply to ]
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I hope you are joking.

I am sure that we were "spying" on noone of any importance. I think it was old lady Betty at the end of the street and the old dude who had his leg amputated because of Diabetes. We don't have anything to worry about. The USA wasn't spying on anybody that may be important I am sure of it, so no worries. But you might want to check on it, they might be spying on you, do you think you are a legitimate person of interest? Could you be considered a potential danger to this country? Or are you just some random who the Government wants to watch?
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Re: Spying on America [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Well, whatever you think of the NY Times report, it looks like the Senate isn't putting ideology over facts and what matters for this country. Today, the Senate blocked the renewal of the Patriot Act because it doesn't sufficiently protect civil liberties. And, of course, many republicans participated in this vote. It seems that some conservatives weren't thrilled either about the fact that the government has been monitoring Americans with no oversight. Apparently, this spying is real; it's not just a myth created by the liberal media.
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Re: NSA Spying on America [choobakky] [ In reply to ]
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But you might want to check on it, they might be spying on you, do you think you are a legitimate person of interest? Could you be considered a potential danger to this country?

Yeah, why do we need those stupid Constitutional protections at all? Everyone knows that the innocent have nothing to fear from the government. Sheesh.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: NSA Spying on America [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Y'all okay with the President having given approval for the NSA to spy on Americans (domestically) without the legally required court approval? Given that the Administration believes it can detain anyone it decides is an "enemy combatant", it seems fine that they can define "unreasonable" (as in "unreasonable search and seizure")any way they choose, law be damned.
Freedom isn't free you America hater you!!!

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Re: NSA Spying on America [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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That is a tough one. No one with anything to hide should care if they are being watched. But that kind of power would eventually get abused. The guy who runs the machine would want to see if his girlfriend is cheating on him, or listen to his wife's boss. This is very obviously "unreasonable". That is why the framers put a Judge between the people and the police, I guess.

I am much less of an issue over international emails and phone calls though.

I am very anxious to see if NYT is full of shit on this.
Last edited by: NeedMoreEngine: Dec 16, 05 12:28
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Re: NSA Spying on America [NeedMoreEngine] [ In reply to ]
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yes, that's right it's probably more of an entertainment thing anyway, maybe hack into some international porn sites etc.. the possibilities are endless.

As for our Constitutional protections, I look at them like condoms, good sometimes when you've done something very dirty and a nuisance otherwise. Keep it clean and we should all be fine.
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Re: NSA Spying on America [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Ken, given this quote from the article:

The officials said the administration had briefed Congressional leaders about the program and notified the judge in charge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the secret Washington court that deals with national security issues.

Can you please define the term secret as used in the article?

Yes, every single leaker of classified information for this article should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
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Re: NSA Spying on America [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Here is what's disturbing about this case. It is safe to assume the administration could have gotten FISA warrants for most, if not all, of these cases. Recent reporting has shown that FISA warrants have been handed out generously since 9/11/. So why not get these warrants all the time?

The government's argument is that it needs to move quickly and, in some cases, it doesn't have time to get these warrants. My question is this: Why not aim for a compromise? In these rare cases, why not start a wiretap and then get FISA permission in a reasonable amount of time? That seems far better than circumventing the entire legal structure that was setup to ensure that the government wouldn't abuse its eavesdropping powers -- a power that it has definitely abused in the past.

It strikes me that the administration is less concerned with getting timely permission than with the possibility that permission could ultimately be denied (because it tends to overreach). So the solution is to just do an end run around the system altogether.

Here we have an administration that first tried to do away with the right to a lawyer and a trial - -basic habeas corpus. Now it is upending our system of checks and balances. Good job Dick.
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Re: NSA Spying on America [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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"Y'all okay with the President having given approval for the NSA to spy on Americans (domestically) without the legally required court approval?"

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am absolutely fine with it.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: NSA Spying on America [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Matter of fact, now that I think about it, I wish they had been doing a little more of in the 60 days prior to September 10, 2001.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: NSA Spying on America [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I am so much in agreement with this. I am very willing to give up liberties in order to allow my freaking library records to be public record. I know it is more complicated than that, but really, what do we have to hide.
Last edited by: NeedMoreEngine: Dec 17, 05 12:17
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Re: NSA Spying on America [rundhc] [ In reply to ]
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I am wondering if anyone who has their panties in a wad about this, actually read the article. It has to do with the NSA monitoring international phone calls in select cases. I am obviously missing something, since I have assumed that they monitor all international calls anyway, and if not, why not?

In terms of the decision making process, it was done while informing Congressional leaders of both parties and the judge who runs the security court.

I am still hoping Ken will define the term "secret" as used in the NY Times article.
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Re: NSA Spying on America [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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A few points in response:

First, this program was not widely known. Something like 3 people in the entire justice department knew about it, including one judge who oversaw the FISA court. Also a select number of congress leaders were also told about it. I am not sure that they were asked whether this program could exist. It seems that they were more informed that it existed after the fact.

Second, people on our soil do get wiretapped. That happens fairly often, but it is done with a warrant. A FISA court takes a look at it and signs off. That's an important difference.

So it boils down to this: Bush/Cheney decided that it didn't need to work with laws made by Congress that require a warrant for a tap (a law made to protect our constitutional rights under the 4th amendment). And it didn't need to work with courts expressly made for these purposes. To hell with checks and balances in short.
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Re: NSA Spying on America [rundhc] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry bud you are flat wrong. The NYT whole agenda was to make it look like it was the president, acting independently when in fact that is the farthest thing from the truth. The key quote from his speech today:

"Without identifying specific lawmakers, Bush said congressional leaders have been briefed more than a dozen times on the program's activities."



http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/17/D8EI32N00.html
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Re: NSA Spying on America [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry bud you are flat wrong. The NYT whole agenda was to make it look like it was the president, acting independently when in fact that is the farthest thing from the truth. The key quote from his speech today:

"Without identifying specific lawmakers, Bush said congressional leaders have been briefed more than a dozen times on the program's activities."



http://www.breitbart.com/...12/17/D8EI32N00.html


Senate Armed Services Committee...

House Intelligence Committee...

and their respective staff liaisons.

-kd

kestrel driver


DonorsChoose.org (!!!)
bogolight.com (!!!)
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Re: NSA Spying on America [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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I don't see where what you posted contradicted anything that rundhc said....




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Re: NSA Spying on America [NeedMoreEngine] [ In reply to ]
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I am so much in agreement with this. I am very willing to give up liberties in order to allow my freaking library records to be public record. I know it is more complicated than that, but really, what do we have to hide. Ben Franklin said, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." I totally agree with this.
You realize, of course, that Franklin was saying that people who are willing to give the government more power (giving up liberty) in the name of "security" will end up less secure and with less freedom, which is contradictory to what you and Tom are saying?

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Re: NSA Spying on America [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, you're right. I was drunk when I read the quote and more drunk when I posted it.

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