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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
You cannot be Spanish and in France illegally. Borders are open.

Ok, so you agree with me the ID would not tell whether a person was or was not in legally in a country, right?

Francios wrote:
If you are a legal immigrant in the US, you are supposed to carry your passport with Visa and I94 or green card at all times.

Then why would the US need a national ID?

Let me try this from another angle. Is the point of a US national ID to prove US citizenship or to prove a person is legally in the US? I will agree a US national ID would prove US citizenship. But, you must agree with me the absence of a US ID would not prove the person was illegally in the US, right?

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I'm not expressing myself well.

1. Yes European countries (of the EC) have laws requiring that you carry an ID card with you. If you are anywhere in the EC with your national ID card, it demonstrates you are here legally. So, if I go to Spain with a national ID card from France or Germany and am asked by LEOs to show it, it demonstrates I'm in the country legally. It applies to all the EC. If you don't have an ID card, either you are in this country illegally or you are breaking the law going to a country without your national ID (or passport for that matter. You can see a national ID card as a small more convenient passport that demonstrates citizenship). If you immigrate to Europe from a non EC country you're supposed to carry proof of being there legally.

2. If you are asked by LEO for a national ID card then it shows you are a citizen. If you are not then you are still required to show your Visa or I94 and passport or green card. If you can't show any of this it goes back to the previous point: you are either here illegally or are breaking the law by not carrying your information showing you are here legally eg green card etc.
Last edited by: Francois: Feb 10, 18 13:41
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
I guess I'm not expressing myself well.

1. Yes European countries (of the EC) have laws requiring that you carry an ID card with you. If you are anywhere in the EC with you're national ID card, it demonstrates you are here legally. So, if I go to Spain with a national ID card from France or Germany and am asked by LEOs to show it, it demonstrates I'm in the country legally. It applies to all the EC. If you don't have an ID card, either you are in this country illegally or you are breaking the law going to a country with your national ID (or passport for that matter. You can see a national ID card as a small more convenient passport that demonstrates citizenship). If you immigrate to Europe from a non EC country you're supposed to carry proof of being there legally.

2. If you are asked by LEO for a national ID card then it shows you are a citizen. If you are not then you are still required to show your Visa or I94 and passport or green card. If you can't show any of this it goes back to the previous point: you are either here illegally or are breaking the law by not carrying your information showing you are here legally eg green card etc.

Ok, now I think we are tracking. So, if the US had a national ID card, then possession would prove you are a citizen. Lack of possession would not show you were in the US illegally, but, it would prompt law enforcement to ask for the other papers required to show you are here legally. Ok. Fair enough.

FWIW, the REAL ID Act of 2005 is pushing in that direction. Whether this improves anything is yet to be seen. But, even though the REAL ID will be the required identification for most things that require ID, it will still not be mandated for all citizens to possess.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly. Took a bit longer than expected but I guess I anticipated that how things are handled elsewhere are known. But yes that's the idea.
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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You are required to have a license to drive and required to physically have it on your person when driving. Operating a vehicle without one is a crime. So, you need to have a DL in your possession when driving.

Yes. And the proposal that some people have in mind, as I understand it, is that you would be legally required to physically have a national ID, or your appropriate immigration paperwork (if you're a legal immigrant and not a citizen) with you.

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We have upwards of 22M non-citizens legally in the US. If all 22M had national IDs from their home country, what would that tell us about whether they were legally in the US?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that we can or should mandate for other countries to have their own national IDs. The proposal is for American citizens to have a national ID, and legal immigrants to have their appropriate paperwork, and then anyone who didn't have either of those categories of documents would be identifiable as likely not being here legally.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
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You are required to have a license to drive and required to physically have it on your person when driving. Operating a vehicle without one is a crime. So, you need to have a DL in your possession when driving.


Yes. And the proposal that some people have in mind, as I understand it, is that you would be legally required to physically have a national ID, or your appropriate immigration paperwork (if you're a legal immigrant and not a citizen) with you.

If that is the proposal, that's crazy.

slowguy wrote:
Quote:
We have upwards of 22M non-citizens legally in the US. If all 22M had national IDs from their home country, what would that tell us about whether they were legally in the US?


I don't think anyone is suggesting that we can or should mandate for other countries to have their own national IDs. The proposal is for American citizens to have a national ID, and legal immigrants to have their appropriate paperwork, and then anyone who didn't have either of those categories of documents would be identifiable as likely not being here legally.

Where Francois and I were talking past one another is - I thought his claim was a national ID card would show whether one is or is not in this country illegally. I argued it would show whether a person was a citizen or not, but would not show whether the person was in the US legally. But, he clarified the card would be shown to prove citizenship and, if no card, would prompt law enforcement to request the other required paperwork to show the person was there legally.

This then leads to the other discussion you mentioned - whether such an ID is necessary.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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To add to this, I have no idea if this is doable in the US, if this would work, and if it did whether it's a good solution, let alone the best one.
My experience from how this works in Europe is that it the answer is yes to the first two questions but I still have no clue whether it's anywhere near the best solution. At the very least, I think it's starts addressing the problem but I can understand the reluctance.
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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jhc wrote:
JSA wrote:
veganerd wrote:
Those are just examples, where are the stats?



You're right, those aren't stats. We should discard that entire site and all the data contained in that link.

Wow.

The LR has really caught a case of stupid tonight.


To reinforce, collection of anecdotes are not data either. Do you really think someone couldn't put together a list 10X that long about all the illegal immigrants who haven't broken any laws (outside of the immigration one) who live productive lives and contribute to society? I bet you wouldn't be convinced by that "data" so why should anyone else be convinced about a few cherry-picked examples?

Here's a decent summary of crime rates from a non-partisan entity (you can find differing point of views from the NYT and the Heritage Foundation, for example, but this is as close to unbiased as probably exists)

http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/aug/03/antonio-villaraigosa/mostly-true-undocumented-immigrants-less-likely-co/

You do realize that you said: "...all the illegal immigrants who haven't broken any laws..."? An illegal immigrant cannot legally work or obtain welfare benefits, which means they are breaking laws simply by living in the US beyond their illegal immigrant status.

The problem is the bureaucracies benefit from illegals using their services and they do nothing to stop that fraud. I personally investigated a case in 1994 where a Mexican national living in Mexico, not even an illegal alien, was obtaining welfare benefits from 5 different states, and multiple counties/cities in each state. She used drop boxes and other peoples address, and made a trip each month from Tijuana to Matamoros via California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. All told she made around $10K each month on her trip, enough to buy a new car and fund her tienda in Mexico.

When I contacted those states with my information only one location ever spoke to me, San Antonio, TX. They told me this: We understand your concern but we cannot do anything to stop this abuse. Our job is to give out the benefits and not investigate any fraudulent benefit applicants. You need to speak with the law enforcement agencies over Texas, but I can tell you from my own experiences that they do not have the resources to chase these people down.

The US may as well just flush it all down the toilet. The average empire dies around the 250 year mark, and the US empire is just about there.
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [vecchia capra] [ In reply to ]
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Looks like these Dreamers (that really is a cute name) do have a place to return to -- pro-illegal-immigration groups' protestations to the contrary:

"Alex and Daniela Velez have come to peace with the difficult choice they will need to make if Congress doesn't reach a deal for those covered by the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program by its March 5 deadline: They will leave the country. "Alex and I are both over this [DACA situation]," said Daniela, who is 24 years old. "If DACA ends, I will leave with Alex. I will close my business, leave work and school.""

DACA was a program brought into being by former President Obama's pen and phone and executive order. There is no such thing as a DREAM Act, because it never made it into law. But the skilled use of words -- such as "Dreamer" and "Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals" -- has been effective in glossing over the previous commonly accepted meaning -- by law and tradition -- of illegal immigration.

I'm generally an immigration hardliner (though our immigration system isn't hardline, at least compared to Mexico's and even New Zealand's) and I'm not ashamed or embarrassed by that. We as a nation have a right to safeguard our borders and decide just who can and can't come here and then stay here.

If you come here you need to do it legally and then you need to obey the law while you're here. That you came here illegally should already stand against you. Break the law again -- while you're already here illegally? You go to the head of the line for deportation and possibly a prison sentence here before you're sent packing.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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Why aren't we doing this: Payroll expenses for illegals are not a valid business expense. You want to deduct the cost of an employee, provide the employee's national ID number. Have the IRS crunch the data to identify find anomalies. Make it in businesses' best interest to not hire illegals.
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [Arch Stanton] [ In reply to ]
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Arch Stanton wrote:
Why aren't we doing this: Payroll expenses for illegals are not a valid business expense. You want to deduct the cost of an employee, provide the employee's national ID number. Have the IRS crunch the data to identify find anomalies. Make it in businesses' best interest to not hire illegals.

We are basically doing this. Companies who willingly or ignorantly employ illegals do not declare these expenses due to the possibility of an audit or other investigation. The companies that do this often do so b/c they don't pay them overtime or pay them sub-min wage. That's where they get their incentive to employ illegals, knowing the illegal is not going to file a wage claim. Thus, they are not bringing any undue attention to themselves.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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As to your point about a DL, you can only get a DL if you are legally in the US. An illegal cannot get a DL. Why do we care about nationality? All we care about is being in the US legally and a DL holder must be legal to get a DL. So, if he/she has a DL, he/she is here legally.

Not true.

You can get a DL in California even if not here legally. It's clearly maker as an AB-60 license and only authorizes the person to drive a non-commercial vehicle. It cannot be used in any circumstances as proof of identification. Essentially, it means that (1) if pulled over in California, the driver won't be cited for driving without a license (which is a misdemeanor subject to arrest and impoundment of the vehicle), and more importantly (2) the driver can obtain insurance.

When young and poor, I only maintained the minimum required coverage, which doesn't include uninsured motorist. Sure enough, I was hit by an undocumented, uninsured driver who was entirely at fault, which really sucked. As ridiculous as the California law may sound, illegals are going to drive regardless. I'd much rather they be insured.
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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AlanShearer wrote:

As to your point about a DL, you can only get a DL if you are legally in the US. An illegal cannot get a DL. Why do we care about nationality? All we care about is being in the US legally and a DL holder must be legal to get a DL. So, if he/she has a DL, he/she is here legally.

Not true.

You can get a DL in California even if not here legally. It's clearly maker as an AB-60 license and only authorizes the person to drive a non-commercial vehicle. It cannot be used in any circumstances as proof of identification. Essentially, it means that (1) if pulled over in California, the driver won't be cited for driving without a license (which is a misdemeanor subject to arrest and impoundment of the vehicle), and more importantly (2) the driver can obtain insurance.

When young and poor, I only maintained the minimum required coverage, which doesn't include uninsured motorist. Sure enough, I was hit by an undocumented, uninsured driver who was entirely at fault, which really sucked. As ridiculous as the California law may sound, illegals are going to drive regardless. I'd much rather they be insured.

I said in the US. I said nothing about California.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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JD21 wrote:
I cannot understand why people are incapable of understanding the simple fact that illegals who are here illegally driving while illegally drunk and killing people in accidents is completely solvable.
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Completely solvable? How so?

In the case at hand, the person had already been deported twice. In all likelihood, he was living under the radar. So since you think its' completely solvable, what's the solution that would have prevented him from returning? And please don't say the wall.
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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fair enough.
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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Always interesting when you ask someone a question then instruct them how not to answer.

I feel your pain re an illegal with no ID or insurance causing an accident. My wife and kids were hit head on in a wrong way driving accident caused by a very intoxicated illegal. No ID, no insurance, repeat offender, repeat border crosser. FWIW my wife is first generation Hispanic with family here legally through proper immigration system.

The answer is comprehensive immigration reform, including strong cooperation between local authorities and Fed authorities.

Comprehensive includes, but is not limited to:

- enforcement of current immigration laws
- bolster border security (electronic methods, agents, Wall where appropriate, etc)
- fines for employers who hire illegals
- E-Verify
- prison sentences for repeat border crossers
- no benefits for illegals
- reformed immigration system
- solid path to citizenship for those already here
- reformed guest worker program allowing streamlined path for companies needing workers
- National ID
- States not allowed to override or circumvent Federal immigration laws (we CA for examples of what NOT to do).
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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JD21 wrote:
Always interesting when you ask someone a question then instruct them how not to answer.

I feel your pain re an illegal with no ID or insurance causing an accident. My wife and kids were hit head on in a wrong way driving accident caused by a very intoxicated illegal. No ID, no insurance, repeat offender, repeat border crosser. FWIW my wife is first generation Hispanic with family here legally through proper immigration system.

The answer is comprehensive immigration reform, including strong cooperation between local authorities and Fed authorities.

Comprehensive includes, but is not limited to:

- enforcement of current immigration laws
- bolster border security (electronic methods, agents, Wall where appropriate, etc)
- fines for employers who hire illegals
- E-Verify
- prison sentences for repeat border crossers
- no benefits for illegals
- reformed immigration system
- solid path to citizenship for those already here
- reformed guest worker program allowing streamlined path for companies needing workers
- National ID
- States not allowed to override or circumvent Federal immigration laws (we CA for examples of what NOT to do).

I agree with you almost completely on your points above, with the exception of prison sentences for repeat crossers (why should the taxpayer pay to incarcerate them, just deport them repeatedly, it's cheaper).

But your sensible proposal is doomed. The lefties, trying to court the Hispanic vote, won't go along with the loss of benefits ("Think of the children!"), the business community won't go along with fines for employers, the righties won't go along with a path to citizenship ("Amnesty for lawbreakers!"), and the libertarians won't go along with National ID.

So we're screwed.
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [eb] [ In reply to ]
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Our current system is reminiscent of the old kids game of Red Rover. If one can penetrate the border and make it into California then they’re good. Get a job, DL, medical care, fake name, fake social and a state legal system committed to supporting, defending and keeping you away from the Feds.

The only reason I suggest repeat crossers go to prison is because without addressing all the incentives to be here illegally they’ll just cross again. Prison would act as a major deterrent for repeat crossers - I agree re the taxpayer cost.
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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JD21 wrote:
Our current system is reminiscent of the old kids game of Red Rover. If one can penetrate the border and make it into California then they’re good. Get a job, DL, medical care, fake name, fake social and a state legal system committed to supporting, defending and keeping you away from the Feds.

The only reason I suggest repeat crossers go to prison is because without addressing all the incentives to be here illegally they’ll just cross again. Prison would act as a major deterrent for repeat crossers - I agree re the taxpayer cost.

I hear you. If we had your other reforms, though, you probably wouldn't need that one, since most of the incentives for illegal crossing would be gone.
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Re: Colts Linebacker Edwin Jackson Killed by DUI Driver Being Sought for Deportation [vecchia capra] [ In reply to ]
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vecchia capra wrote:
jhc wrote:
JSA wrote:
veganerd wrote:
Those are just examples, where are the stats?



You're right, those aren't stats. We should discard that entire site and all the data contained in that link.

Wow.

The LR has really caught a case of stupid tonight.


To reinforce, collection of anecdotes are not data either. Do you really think someone couldn't put together a list 10X that long about all the illegal immigrants who haven't broken any laws (outside of the immigration one) who live productive lives and contribute to society? I bet you wouldn't be convinced by that "data" so why should anyone else be convinced about a few cherry-picked examples?

Here's a decent summary of crime rates from a non-partisan entity (you can find differing point of views from the NYT and the Heritage Foundation, for example, but this is as close to unbiased as probably exists)

http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/aug/03/antonio-villaraigosa/mostly-true-undocumented-immigrants-less-likely-co/


You do realize that you said: "...all the illegal immigrants who haven't broken any laws..."? An illegal immigrant cannot legally work or obtain welfare benefits, which means they are breaking laws simply by living in the US beyond their illegal immigrant status.

The problem is the bureaucracies benefit from illegals using their services and they do nothing to stop that fraud. I personally investigated a case in 1994 where a Mexican national living in Mexico, not even an illegal alien, was obtaining welfare benefits from 5 different states, and multiple counties/cities in each state. She used drop boxes and other peoples address, and made a trip each month from Tijuana to Matamoros via California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. All told she made around $10K each month on her trip, enough to buy a new car and fund her tienda in Mexico.

When I contacted those states with my information only one location ever spoke to me, San Antonio, TX. They told me this: We understand your concern but we cannot do anything to stop this abuse. Our job is to give out the benefits and not investigate any fraudulent benefit applicants. You need to speak with the law enforcement agencies over Texas, but I can tell you from my own experiences that they do not have the resources to chase these people down.

The US may as well just flush it all down the toilet. The average empire dies around the 250 year mark, and the US empire is just about there.

Wow dude. Read much?

illegal immigrants who haven't broken any laws (outside of the immigration one)

And again, your one story, even if true, doesn't make a big picture. The fact is, illegal immigration succeeds because these people do work Americans won't do (like seasonal harvesting) or big companies know they'll do the work cheaper.

Listen, I'm all for an intelligent upgrade of our border control capabilities (a big dumb "wall" solely because some NYC ignoramus pulled it out of his ass does not qualify) and continued prosecution and deportation of illegals who are committing actual crimes. But as you say, there are not enough resources out there and I'm not in favor of massive influxes of money for mass deportations at the expense of more useful programs simply because some a bunch of bigots blame their problems on Mexicans. We've had at least a couple reasonable, bipartisan immigration packages rejected by the right, first the Tea Party and lately by white nationalist (who's only qualification to be in government seems to be that he's a white nationalist) Stephen Miller

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