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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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Here is my funny analogy of the debate:

HED: We recommend 90 PSI maximum pressure in our Plus wheels

Random Internet Guys: 120 PSI is the best choice for HED Plus wheels

Others: RIG, do you have any data to help us decide between your claim and HED's recommendation?

RIGs: Yes... because "secret."

RIG Defenders: Others, RIG has equal or more credibility than the designer of the wheel... because "Internet."

Others: I give up.

RIG Defenders: Do what you like, but RIGs with no data should have equal consideration to any manufacturer's claims except FLO and Tririg, because we like their transparency. We think you should run 120 PSI.

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I am hoping one of the HED guys jumps in to the exchange like they have in a few other threads. Or, I am hoping that one of the advocates will either confirm that they tested 23mm Attack tires on Plus wheels for Crr and aerodynamics relative to SC and GPTT tires. And, if they have not, concede that fact.
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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [UOTriathlete] [ In reply to ]
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Just to add a little more data to the topic:

http://bikeblather.blogspot.it/...corsa-speed-tlr.html

Now that we got is the Crr values for CS TLR on Hed 6+ Wheels run tubeless being the fastest, and we got Thomas Gerlachs Aero testing which confirm its amongst the top spots in aero testing too.

So the Vittoria Corsa Speed TLR is tire that works extremely well with the wheelset you just bought! Enough data here to go on.
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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [Ben6] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I think I'm gonna go vittoria cs. I cab get them for 40 bucks ea and, idk, I'm first gen Italian American, feels right somehow

Professional Triathlete and Professional Orchestral Musician. Bikes, Bass, Beer.
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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
I did my TLR23/SS20-gen3 smackdown on the HED rim. Darn close with the TLR being about 1 watts better at 24 mph. Now my testing isn't as fancy as Tom A's and maybe I have a "magic SS20", but given the better looking profile of the SS20 it would be really hard to call this much more than a draw.

Width of the TLR is 27.0 versus 24.3 for the SS and the leading edge profile of the SS definitely looks better.

If I had to guess I would say SS20 at >25mph and a smooth coarse, based on the better leading edge profile of the SS20. TLR at lower speed and rougher pavement. Probably cant go wrong with either. You will probably see me rocking a SS20 on my HED 3+.
This is also where I've landed after piecing together the various bits of information floating around on this topic. For low-yaw and smooth pavement, I run the H3+ with SS20. If it's windier I move to the Jet+ front, and for rougher pavement the CS23. In the rear I always run CS23 (I'd run the new 25mm version if I could, but don't have enough clearance on my frame).
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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
to be fair, if you talk to them(HED), they don't test 20mm tires on their rims.

Correct and I think we know why: that narrow/short of a tire could cause someone to damage the rim if they ran the pressure too low. FWIW, I don't really think the 20mm SS is a 20mm tire. It's more like a 22mm tire and mine measures wider than that still on a HED 3+ (same profile as a Jet 6+).

For long course I'd run the 20mm SS without thinking twice. For short course I'll take the additional flat protection and the minor time penalty of the Attack. If there were an tubeless equivalent to the Attack I'd run that for short course.

My rationale is that for short course racing my race is basically over if I flat. Sure, I'll fix the flat and pedal my way in but any chance at a PR or a podium is off the table. In my calculus a ten second time penalty due to having a higher crr is worth it to have a bit of additional flat protection.

For long course, I can change a tube and be back on my way in about two minutes if I flat. If I don't flat, I pick up about 45 seconds over 90km with the 20mm SS. That seems like a worthwhile risk/reward to me. If I have to put a tube in the CS... that's minimum a five minute venture for me. Minimum.
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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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just use slightly higher pressure with the narrower tire, it's been done for years :)

you are not going to be running the same pressure with 23mm SC as you would with 20mm SS(new or older version)

also....is the h3+ not 25.5 vs the jet+ 25, not sure if internal size the same
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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Interestingly enough, in Tom A's wheel/tire test, the flo 90 with a 23mm supersonic won. Seems like since the HED wheels are similar width, if not wider, it might not be a bad idea to run a 23mm over the 20mm.
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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
just use slightly higher pressure with the narrower tire, it's been done for years :)

you are not going to be running the same pressure with 23mm SC as you would with 20mm SS(new or older version)

also....is the h3+ not 25.5 vs the jet+ 25, not sure if internal size the same

I know that but there's no guarantee that Joe Consumer will :)

Maybe I'll break out the calipers this evening.
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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
Interestingly enough, in Tom A's wheel/tire test, the flo 90 with a 23mm supersonic won. Seems like since the HED wheels are similar width, if not wider, it might not be a bad idea to run a 23mm over the 20mm.

There is actually a pretty huge difference between a FLO Carbon Clincher and a HED Plus wheel. Most folks glance at the brake track width and think no further. The FLO CC is 24mm and the HED Jet Plus is 25mm (FLO aluminum is also 25mm), so those look close. But, the interior volume is substantially different. FLO interior widths are 17mm and 19.4mm for CC and aluminum, respectively. HED Jet Plus wheels are 21mm internal. So, the characteristics of a tire on a HED rim will have a different sidewall shape and greater interior volume than the same tire on a narrower (internal) rim. Fortunately, a bunch of Tom's recent tests were on HED Plus wheels, so if he continues with those going forward, the results will be comparable.

The HED Plus wheels are kind of an outlier relative to most other wheels because of HED's design emphasis on wide interior and higher interior volume in general. I would think that the width and volume difference would impact both aerodynamics and rolling resistance differently on HED wheels from other typical wheels.
Last edited by: exxxviii: Jan 22, 18 10:52
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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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So the flo aluminum rim wheels should be similar to the HED wheels then? The wind tunnel testing was done in 2015 before the flo CC wheels. I'm asking also because I have the flo hybrid wheels and I'm trying to figure out what tires to run for next season, and I can't help but feel like something like the new supersonic might be a good option. I think I'm too chicken to try the corsa speeds though, at least right now.

Additionally, that's even more reason to not run a 20mm tire on their wide rims, because the volume doesn't increase, it changes shape, meaning its shorter
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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
So the flo aluminum rim wheels should be similar to the HED wheels then?
I don't know. The FLO aluminum are certainly a lot closer in interior width to the HEDs, but they are still almost 2mm narrower. Plus, I think the HEDs intentionally have a deeper center section for greater overall interior volume. So, I have no idea how all those things work together in the way they impact tire dynamics.
Honestly, given the lack of information, I would choose one of the top contenders in Tom A's. Crr analysis, and weigh according to your risk factors. For example:
  1. Choose the Vittora SC if you accept highest risk of a flat
  2. Choose the Supersonic for a balance of good Crr and good puncture resistance
  3. Choose the GP4K2 to minimize flat risk and still have acceptable Crr and aero

Regardless, I would probably run 23mm in front and 25mm in back. It seems like the most common comment here has been 23mm or 25mm in back are about the same aerodynamically, so might as well go with 25mm for lower Crr and comfort. In front, it seems people are saying that 23mm in front gives you better enough aero that it is worth it.
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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough. I guess I'll get a supersonic and see what width it measures after mounting, that'll
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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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Is there a test of CRR with the Vittoria tire running a latex tube VS tubeless?

(I'd think weight is roughly similar with sealant making up for lack of tube weight in the tire, so rotating mass and power required to turn the wheel with either could be about the same...If that's a reasonable thought, then CRR would be the variable to focus on.)
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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Help On Hed Jet Black 9 Tire Choice? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you! Don't know how I missed that, it was probably posted earlier somewhere and I wasn't very observant.
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