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Re: Transferring Pool Speed to Open Water. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
I was just getting at that I don't think the OP was really looking at a finishing time so much as how he's doing relative to others that he "should" be able to keep pace with or finish ahead of.

This.

We are pretty lucky where I live - from late Nov through to March, there is probably a race every weekend, sometimes two. So I generally have plenty of reference points in terms of competition, because a lot of acquaintances bob up each race. And ... we aren't generally talking about crazy conditions. The race from last weekend is a pretty much dead straight point-to-point swim, in nice conditions, and as I mentioned, my 20th in 24 years.

Anyhow...back to the point...having thought more about it, I am definitely going to alter my taper, and also try different warm up strategies throughout the rest of the season.
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Re: Transferring Pool Speed to Open Water. [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
In my experience, every OWS is so different that picking an expecting finish time—let alone an expected finish place—is a poor way to race plan. Too many variables-conditions, sighting, other swimmers around you, your pacing etc. Work on your start in a practice as well as some fast sets in the days leading up to the race as others said.


I think relative position compared to others is static. Look at the ITU guys. You're either front pack, back of front pack, 2nd pack or 3rd. It's almost the same at Ironman racing. If you put all those guys in the pool, their pecking order will be identical. Once you get to a certain level of age group racing the pecking order in the pool and open water is going to also be identical, because everyone has decent tactics and has the subtleties of open water down. It is extremely rare that I see the pecking order change between FOP age groupers between pool and open water. If the order changes its like a 1-2% exception.

Do we think Sun Yang could win the 10K open water swim in the olympics. I'd be surprised if when he was winning the 1500m, he would not win the 10K open water.

There have been a couple of Australian Olympic swimmers (Travis Nederpelt & Stephanie Rice) who have done a few triathlons and their swimming has been good, but not as good as you'd expect. Nederpelt does around 3.50 for 400m, so 56s/100m, his Busso 70.3 swim time was 24mins, so 1.15s/100m and that's with a wetsuit. I raced that day, swim distance was spot on and conditions were good. Perhaps his wetsuit was ill-fitting or he was holding back, who knows, but that's a pretty big discrepancy. He got beaten by some guy in my AG 40 - 44.

I think swim speed probably accounts for 70% of your time, the rest comes down to experience, tactics, pacing, how well you start, how well positioned you are at the start, how well you manage traffic etc etc I had a race on Sunday and was first until I hit the previous wave, I swam through them, the most direct and logical route and came out 4th. 3 other guys took the long route, swam around them, but that proved quicker...

If you get a point to point swim, perfect conditions, no wetsuits, no traffic, well marked requiring little sighting a good strong pool swimmer is going to go well, but you start to throw into the mix choppy seas, traffic etc then OWS experience starts to take on more significance.
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Re: Transferring Pool Speed to Open Water. [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
I agree, but I think sighting is the biggest factor, unless you're a real wall-hugger on open turns in the pool. For sure, I get into more oxygen debt on my flip wall turns during interval sets than I do on race day where I don't have to hold my breath as long in OW. Sighting, however, is a real factor and I think is underestimated by like 1000% on this forum and elsewhere. I've been working a lot lately on my OWS 'skill set' to narrow the gap between my pool and OWS, and sighting is enemy #1.

I actually feel pretty proficient at sighting and have a good rhythm to it, but like it or not, if I'm doing a hard 10 x 200 in the pool, the moment I force myself to sight every 3rd stroke cycle at minimum, I slow by +3 to +5 sec/100, which is a pretty big hit. (Interestingly, if I am doing near all-outs, it's barely +1/100). I never see anybody on these forums mentioning doing sets with sighting in the pool, but now that I'm throwing these into my regimen, it is NOT trivial for the typical AOS, certainly not trivial enough that you can just practice it for a bunch of lengths randomly prior to race day and expect it to be smooth sailing and not at all detrimental to your normal stroke when you race. I feel this is a skill that really needs to be hammered home at the AOS level and is really neglected, as it carries a huge time penalty either in terms of poor navigation or simply slowing you down from the head lifting.

Reviving this thread because this is kind of what I am looking for advice on, how often should I work sighting in my weekly sets. I swim 4x/week and mostly do repeats as I am readying for a race. I feel I should include sighting in agreement with the post quoted above but I wonder just how much sighting should I include? Half of the set? once/twice every length? Just at the end?

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
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Re: Transferring Pool Speed to Open Water. [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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unless your the leader in a triathlon on the swim, i think sighting is a little far down the hierachy of what make you a fast open water swimmer.

turnover, drafting skills, learning to swim in straight line (without looking) will get you most of the way. Let the person ahead of you do the sighting in most cases. Even if that person dosnt pick the straightest line.... it s 99% of the time better to stay behind them...focus on staying in the draft and save energy.

I rarely ask to practice such skills in the pool.... open water sure.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Transferring Pool Speed to Open Water. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
Yes, I understand, and my comments remain the same. I believe there are many factors as to why you may lose time in an OWS compared to someone who you can pace with in a pool. You may disagree.

I don't disagree, just that from what the OP is describing I don't think that the other factors are as much in play as messing up the taper.

warmup might also be an issue, reading the posts again. 30 minutes is a long break between warmup and the race start.

One year on, so I thought I'd bump & update.

SO... I did two things differently this year.

1) Changed the taper so that I did a normal 3.2km, hard session on the Monday, a hard-ish 2.2km on Tuesday, and an easy 1.6km on Thursday which contained 8 x build 50's, then rest before the Saturday race.

2) walked to the start line so that I arrived there 40 minutes before the gun, got the wetsuit on & did a 7-800m warm up that finished about 10 minutes before the start.

It's the best I have felt in an open water race for a long time, and my placing was a lot better. I think both changes likely helped. In terms of the result, I was back where I should have been, relative to competitors that I know. Thanks for everyone's input, unfortunately last summer I got really sick after this same race & couldn't implement any of the advice, as I basically missed the rest of the season..
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Re: Transferring Pool Speed to Open Water. [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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NAB777 wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
The thing that jumps out at me is that you say you cut back to 5k "easy" for the week prior. Typically, a good taper is reduced volume (but not too reduced for typical masters swimmers and / or distance swimmers) but you need some fast stuff. If you don't do the fast swimming, that's what happens, you get sluggish feeling. Probably something neuromuscular going on when you don't get the fast stuff in.

I don't approach taper as "easier", just shorter, faster and more recovery time.


I actually think this first reply of the thread might have nailed it. I have a few more races coming up this season, so might give your advice a go ...thanks.

Also regarding taper, I read several time that one week was not a good choice for taper length, leading to sluggish feeling (something about muscles recovery delays...). Better do 3 days, or more than 10 days.

However, not sure if this apply to swimming, or really apply to you, as I suppose it is depending on relative load and peoples specificities.
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Re: Transferring Pool Speed to Open Water. [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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These would the issues that stick out for me:

- Like Jason said, your taper is playing a big role in your feeling on race morning. Also, you probably don’t have to taper much at all since you aren’t swimming much. There’s really not a lot to taper off of.

- Your low training volume is another issue. Consistency is king in swimming, so you can be more consistent on race day. An inconsistent result on race day isn’t surprising on 5-6km for most of the year.

- With the lower volume, you haven’t had enough time to work on technique and fitness. So you probably don’t have the speed to get out at the start with the faster swimmers. Your drafting with slower swimmers. If you aren’t in the race from the start, you aren’t in the race.

- I would avoid time goals. It’s the worst metric for open water swimming. FYI...there aren’t any world records for time in the 10k Open water swim in the Olympics. Conditions can vary. Courses aren’t measure accurately, etc.

- You aren’t warming up enough. Some athletes need more warm up for the swim, especially in the morning. Bring some stretch cords and a medicine ball with you next time.

- You are more focused on outcome than process. Stay present. Stay focused and take it one stroke at a time.

If you have any other questions, please let me know. Hope this helps.

Tim

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Re: Transferring Pool Speed to Open Water. [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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NAB777 wrote:
140triguy wrote:
At least once or twice per week, start off your session fast, without the usual build of a traditional in-water warm-up. The reason is that you need to do inntraining what you expect to do in the race. When that gun goes, it's splash-and-dash for everyone. You don't go straight from a build warm-up to the race.

In practices, start on dry land with some arm swings, jumping, and maybe a little fast walking or jogging to get the muscles primed. Then, just get in and start at the pace you think you'd need in the first 300m of that race.

Also, what Jason said: stay "sharp" during taper by including fast efforts in practices, but cut don the volume.

Ta, will give this a go too.

I think this is a great point. I think the first 300 is a pretty critical time in the race. At this point, you are exerting a lot of energy in a short amount of time. The gun goes off and you start like a bat out of hell, jockey for position, siting, etc. That uses a ton of energy in a short time. If you don’t do a proper warm up, you will basically be shocking your body going from 0-60 in no time at all. I have noticed my performance increase this year with a proper warm up. I used to do a little practice swim to feel the water and that’s it. Now I do a little half mile jog then get in the water and do a couple hundred easy and then 100 hundred or so at start pace. As I worked this into my races, I noticed a better overall performance in my races - even finishing 3rd out of the water (behind two elites) in a couple races.

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Re: Transferring Pool Speed to Open Water. [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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NAB777 wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
Yes, I understand, and my comments remain the same. I believe there are many factors as to why you may lose time in an OWS compared to someone who you can pace with in a pool. You may disagree.

I don't disagree, just that from what the OP is describing I don't think that the other factors are as much in play as messing up the taper.

warmup might also be an issue, reading the posts again. 30 minutes is a long break between warmup and the race start.

One year on, so I thought I'd bump & update.

SO... I did two things differently this year.

1) Changed the taper so that I did a normal 3.2km, hard session on the Monday, a hard-ish 2.2km on Tuesday, and an easy 1.6km on Thursday which contained 8 x build 50's, then rest before the Saturday race.

2) walked to the start line so that I arrived there 40 minutes before the gun, got the wetsuit on & did a 7-800m warm up that finished about 10 minutes before the start.

It's the best I have felt in an open water race for a long time, and my placing was a lot better. I think both changes likely helped. In terms of the result, I was back where I should have been, relative to competitors that I know. Thanks for everyone's input, unfortunately last summer I got really sick after this same race & couldn't implement any of the advice, as I basically missed the rest of the season..

Awesome, glad that helped!

Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Transferring Pool Speed to Open Water. [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
These would the issues that stick out for me:

- Like Jason said, your taper is playing a big role in your feeling on race morning. Also, you probably don’t have to taper much at all since you aren’t swimming much. There’s really not a lot to taper off of.

- Your low training volume is another issue. Consistency is king in swimming, so you can be more consistent on race day. An inconsistent result on race day isn’t surprising on 5-6km for most of the year.

- With the lower volume, you haven’t had enough time to work on technique and fitness. So you probably don’t have the speed to get out at the start with the faster swimmers. Your drafting with slower swimmers. If you aren’t in the race from the start, you aren’t in the race.

- I would avoid time goals. It’s the worst metric for open water swimming. FYI...there aren’t any world records for time in the 10k Open water swim in the Olympics. Conditions can vary. Courses aren’t measure accurately, etc.

- You aren’t warming up enough. Some athletes need more warm up for the swim, especially in the morning. Bring some stretch cords and a medicine ball with you next time.

- You are more focused on outcome than process. Stay present. Stay focused and take it one stroke at a time.

If you have any other questions, please let me know. Hope this helps.

Tim

Thanks for taking the time to detail a reply - much appreciated..

My comments:

1) Yep - I figured as much about the taper, hence significantly reducing it this year. Felt better for it.
2) I basically doubled the training & averaged exactly 10k per week last year. Unfortunately I have general shoulder issues & suffered an issue with my right shoulder in late OCT, and it set me back somewhat. By Jan 1st, I'd gotten myself back to where I was at before I got injured, but hoped to be a fair bit faster by race day. Them's the breaks.. This year, I am hoping to replicate (at a minimum) last year's training - hopefully with a bit more threshold work. Gradual build, gradual build...
3) Yeah my speed isn't bad, but definitely isn't great - I'd probably go ~ 37 with a dive start for 50LCM at the moment, but the good guys leave me for dead
4) I definitely don't have time goals in my open water races - it's all about trying to be somewhere near to the guys that I have raced against for years... e.g I did ~16 minutes for this race this year, did under 14 a couple of years ago, over 17 last year... the distance is the same (the buoys are set up with permanent chains), but the tide makes a MASSIVE difference...
5) I felt a lot better this year with a bit longer warm up, but it's definitely a work in progress. I am hoping to do 3-4 more races in the next month so will do some experimenting.
6) Yeah - good advice... I try to not get ahead of myself, but sometimes it can be a challenge...

Probably the best thing to come out of the race was that it's the first time I've actually felt 'good' in a race for some time. I got kicked (hard) in the eye at the start (still hurts a week later), and I had to stop, fix my goggles & start again. Funnily enough, I reckon it calmed me down..

Just with my shoulders... I really think I could benefit from some paddle work, but every time I start using them, I inevitably get sore & have to back off... and this is being really conservative - i.e. starting with 2-300m & building very slowly. Ever heard of similar stories? If so - what did the people do to help avoid the issues coming back?

Thanks again.
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Re: Transferring Pool Speed to Open Water. [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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with shoulder issues, avoid paddles like the plague. They are more likely to hurt than to help.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Transferring Pool Speed to Open Water. [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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With your shoulder issues, you might want to make sure you are keeping your hand in the correct swim "channel" as you pull through the stroke. i.e. not too wide of your body and not crossing over the midline. I've heard of swimming shoulder problems often being attributable to strain being caused by having your hands/forearm track outside the optimal area.
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Re: Transferring Pool Speed to Open Water. [tanzbodeli] [ In reply to ]
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tanzbodeli wrote:
With your shoulder issues, you might want to make sure you are keeping your hand in the correct swim "channel" as you pull through the stroke. i.e. not too wide of your body and not crossing over the midline. I've heard of swimming shoulder problems often being attributable to strain being caused by having your hands/forearm track outside the optimal area.

Yeah, I have a tendency to go a bit deep with my pull...always trying to keep on top of it..
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Re: Transferring Pool Speed to Open Water. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
NAB777 wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
Yes, I understand, and my comments remain the same. I believe there are many factors as to why you may lose time in an OWS compared to someone who you can pace with in a pool. You may disagree.


I don't disagree, just that from what the OP is describing I don't think that the other factors are as much in play as messing up the taper.

warmup might also be an issue, reading the posts again. 30 minutes is a long break between warmup and the race start.


One year on, so I thought I'd bump & update.

SO... I did two things differently this year.

1) Changed the taper so that I did a normal 3.2km, hard session on the Monday, a hard-ish 2.2km on Tuesday, and an easy 1.6km on Thursday which contained 8 x build 50's, then rest before the Saturday race.

2) walked to the start line so that I arrived there 40 minutes before the gun, got the wetsuit on & did a 7-800m warm up that finished about 10 minutes before the start.

It's the best I have felt in an open water race for a long time, and my placing was a lot better. I think both changes likely helped. In terms of the result, I was back where I should have been, relative to competitors that I know. Thanks for everyone's input, unfortunately last summer I got really sick after this same race & couldn't implement any of the advice, as I basically missed the rest of the season..


Awesome, glad that helped!

A final update.

Have done three more races this summer, kept the same routine (i.e. no real taper, good warm up), and have felt good in every race, so I think the issue is solved. Now it gets down to more training over winter & getting a bit faster..

Well, that & not going off course like I did yesterday & adding 3 minutes to my time....!!

Thanks all.
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