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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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Let me ask you guys - why would you want triathlon to increase?

I like the relative exclusivity of the Ironman events. I like the fact that these events are hard, and you need to put time and effort in if you want to succeed. In my mind, these events are meant to be very hard and challenging, not all-inclusive. You don't get the wow factor if everybody and their brother is doing it.

Think about marathons. Forty years ago it was a big deal if you finished one. Nowadays, I know lots of folks that have run them and it doesn't seem like a big thing anymore. I wouldn't want the IM to get to that point, where you get a 'meh' from casuals.
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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As someone who is entirely new to Triathlon (never done one yet) i'll offer some observations from the many different competitive environments i came from.
part 1:

i ran track and cross country in high school and track in college. this is very structured training, practice, racing for youth to get involved and be competitive. it works great too... when i was in high school (96'-99'), our track team was large and drew in all the best athletes from the school. HS cross country we even were able to poach some of the top tier football players (largely because the football team sucked, and football wasnt that big in michigan. soccer was more popular). There was not even a hint of anything triathlon even available at the school. literally no grass roots involvement, no school involvement, nothing.

part 2:

my first job in high school was working for a local bike shop. i immediately got involved in Mountain bike racing and followed shortly by road racing. won several junior state championships in every type of disipline offered. competed all through the midwest and even did junior nationals for road racing. 100% of that was done without any coaching, no team to work with, no clubs to help out with what to do. I loved doing it is why i did it, but i was essentially one of maybe 3 kids at my highschool racing bikes. Its much, much harder to get involved in the sport when there is zero outreach to youth. im confident thats why Triathlon is largely a mid/late age group involvement.

part 3:

i raced some mountain bikes in college as well. we did have a club sport (but it was a division 3 school so not a big club), and we did attend NCAA events through the midwest. there was good involvement at those events and excellent competition. But the local bike shops and cycling club largely didnt help or get involved with the college team (i know the bigger schools did have that involvement though). more outreach from clubs and shops would most certainly have brought more people to the sport. I continued to race mountain bikes, at a lesser level after graduating college and brought a bunch of friends from grad school and work to start doing it with me. moral of this part of the story is that having done it as a youth, i continued to do it as a young adult, and brought other people in. even with basically no one guiding me on what or how to do it. As the mountain bike racing evolved over the years, they ran into a problem of dividing the racing groups up to much. and then they made to many different types of events. so now most of the events get half the people attending that i saw in the late 90s at the races i did as a junior. its silly to have a beginner class, sport class, expert, and then pro, all with age groups subdivided, and again subdivided with single speed and Clydesdale. and now days its XC racing, enduro racing, downhill, endurance races, cyclocross all drawing from the same crowd of people. your basically racing yourself at that point. and further break it up by having a half dozen different organizations offering events in the same region... its racing overload!! in the 90's it was one race organization in michigan, with maybe 5-8 races a year, and that was it, well attended, super fun. We had one national level NORBA race at the end of the year called iceman cometh that was huge. easy to schedule, you knew everyone was going to all of them. now you have to pick a series you want to do, and hope some competition shows up.

part 4:

i have a business now building hopped up street cars and race cars. "expensive" hobbies is a relative term... one grassroots race weekend our mitsubishi evo race cars can burn 1500$ in tires, $100 in gas, 200$ in brake pads, and easily need 500-1000$ in post race repairs/service. that doesnt include building the 40-50k+ car and any of the travel expenses associated with it. or the truck and trailer needed to move it. multiply everything by 2-3+ if you want to do it with a porsche or other exotic car. I actually sold all my race car parts and put my car up for sale to start doing Tris because its significantly LESS expensive. However, there is a lot of people who race cars, but at the pointy end of the field there are few people doing it outside of unlimited budget gentlemen racers and pro teams. If you want to be the outright fastest, it costs money, period. the sport has largely flocked to budget racing (think lemons racing and chump car, where the car has to be less then 500$ per the rules). but even still the cost of actually doing an event and building the car is still thousands and thousands of dollars. its likely half, or even a 1/4 cost of a NASA race with 10x more seat time. people love the budget racing because it enables people without the huge budgets to get out and race competitively.. sadly even that form of racing is getting polluted with big dollar builds on "cheap" cars to be competitive. Further, arrive a drive is becoming very popular. think renting yourself a top level tri bike for a week or two leading up to a race. significantly cheaper then buying the same bike and using it twice a year.

part 5:

Trying to get involved in Triathlons just recently turn out to be far harder then i thought it would be. with facebook, google and basically every resource at my fingertips, it was amazingly hard to find people to train with locally, clubs to work with, and even my local bike shop hasnt been all that helpful in getting in touch with the right people. finding events to participate in (outside of ironman events), is almost on a "Who-you-know" basis to find the oddball webpage where the race and registration information is. my observation is that the resources to do this sport are far to segmented. if you want people to get involved at all levels, it needs to be everyone working together. bike shops, running stores, and swimming stores all need to participate with youth, clubs and events... it is afterall their clientele... i have to do the same thing with my car shop, and it works exceptionally well at driving business my way. Web resources and facebook groups should be more consolidated, although honestly the only way thats going to happen is if someone builds a good webpage that offers event calendars that source from all different types of events/venues and locations. This page has the traffic and most of the pieces in place, but looking at my region for races its basically empty (Dallas). Clubs should reach out to high schools and colleges to draw in younger athletes to the sports, and the shops/manufacturers need to help the clubs do this too.

cliffs notes:

tri basically has zero youth outreach.
to many events drives down participation levels at each
cost is relative - to be the fastest is never cheap. if you are out to have fun, dont worry about spending the most, but dont cry if you dont win.
increasing involvement takes the entire community. clubs/teams, shops, manufacturers, and racers all working to bring people in and make it successful.

hope that is some feedback on someone new to this sport. doing Half IM galveston in april!
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [stanisz73] [ In reply to ]
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stanisz73 wrote:
Let me ask you guys - why would you want triathlon to increase?

I personally don't care if it does, but not because it makes triathlon less exclusive. I applaud and encourage anyone who wants to do a triathlon of any distance, but I don't have a vested interest in the continued growth of the sport. Obviously, bigger is not always better. I do have a vested interest in enough people maintaining interest so that triathlons continue to be organized near where I live.

Generally, it is interesting to discuss having been a triathlete for 35 years, and I have friends who are in the tri biz.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Jan 26, 18 10:43
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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That has been tried before. They didn't sell enough to justify continuing to do so. The bottom level specialized transition and the Felt s22 are examples of this.
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [stanisz73] [ In reply to ]
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Why wouldn't you want triathlon to increase? You realize there's more to the sport than ironman, right? Increased numbers means increased competition, more races, cheaper races, cheaper gear. More people racing means more acceptance of the sport from society as a whole; it'd be nice of people didn't think I'm weird because I race tris. Also, the pro scene would have more opportunities to grow, which I would love. More money in the sport for pros means that more pros are able to make a living at it meaning professional racing gets faster.
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
The bike industry will focus more on mass producing quality time trial bikes at an entry level price. Maybe even some new companies emerge with very competitive starter pricing.

Remember the days when companies offered aluminum bikes at reasonable prices? No reason they couldn't have a semi-decent tri-bike now starting at the $1500 mark or below. Use standard components, regular (round) seatpost, spec with Sora and microshift shifters.



Bike makers have tried, but the market hasn't responded. Fuji carried a ~US$1200 11 speed alloy Tri/TT bike up until the last year, and couldn't get any market traction. The remainders had to be whored out on bikesdirect.com for $799. Hell, they still have some size 54's in stock almost a year later. And +/- US$1200 has been the "street price" of the carbon Kestral Talon tri bike for a number of years. I bet is sells in fewer #s than the $7500+ Cervelo P5.

The "bike problem" with triathlon, if we have one, has nothing to do with availability and everything to do with perception.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Jan 26, 18 11:29
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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To expand on Gary's point--you can find quite a few full carbon Tri bikes for less than $2500 new from Specialized, Orbea, Trek, etc . That's less than any even semi-serious mountain bike, which are typically treated as consumables by their owners.

Some basic napkin-math would indicate that buying a Shiv Sport is actually cheaper than the cost for me to enter, attend and finish the next closest IM-branded 140.6.
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [Per] [ In reply to ]
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I stand corrected.

I haven't seen one of these bikes in an LBS in years, so I thought they didn't exist anymore.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Yea, I was pricing out used bikes last year and my wife texted me that our LBS had a pair of Shiv Sports. I think I saved that screenshot where she told me to go buy one.

Sure, it's got some budget components here and there--but it's a very effective tool for a beginner through intermediate and it's easy enough to upgrade those parts when needed.

I realize that 2100 is more than 1200---but looking at the range of MTB prices at any LBS, that's right in the meat of what they sell.
Last edited by: Per: Jan 26, 18 12:02
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
Why wouldn't you want triathlon to increase? You realize there's more to the sport than ironman, right? Increased numbers means increased competition, more races, cheaper races, cheaper gear.

These are benefits for which I would support an increase in triathlon although I think it is understandable that some people don't want to participate in highly popular sports. For example, I think the exclusivity of Ironman was a draw for many people. Now that completing an Ironman is common, there has been an explosion of Xtreme races which draw far fewer. There is nothing wrong with people seeking a different path, and thus wishing for fewer, not more participants.

imswimmer328 wrote:
More people racing means more acceptance of the sport from society as a whole; it'd be nice of people didn't think I'm weird because I race tris. Also, the pro scene would have more opportunities to grow, which I would love. More money in the sport for pros means that more pros are able to make a living at it meaning professional racing gets faster.

I think pros would agree with your opinion, but I find this a very weak reason to support increased participation, especially since the pro scene is an interesting side show that many triathletes don't give a rat's ass about. It's been stated on ST over and over that few people car about them, and they certainly don't sign up for races because pro athlete so and so might be there. Age groupers, not pros are responsible for the financial success of the sport. Athletes that want to make a living at a given sport might want to investigate the pay scales and odds of success before making their selection.
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [evokevin] [ In reply to ]
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evokevin wrote:
Trying to get involved in Triathlons just recently turn out to be far harder then i thought it would be. with facebook, google and basically every resource at my fingertips, it was amazingly hard to find people to train with locally, clubs to work with, and even my local bike shop hasnt been all that helpful in getting in touch with the right people. finding events to participate in (outside of ironman events), is almost on a "Who-you-know" basis to find the oddball webpage where the race and registration information is. my observation is that the resources to do this sport are far to segmented. if you want people to get involved at all levels, it needs to be everyone working together. bike shops, running stores, and swimming stores all need to participate with youth, clubs and events... it is afterall their clientele...

Yep
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [evokevin] [ In reply to ]
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What area of the country do you live in?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [evokevin] [ In reply to ]
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Part 5: hits the mark, triathletes are generally narcissistic. Clubs and groups form and quickly engage in exclusive behaviour. When new people reach out or try to join, tri groups either ignore or make it hard and don't encourage new entrants.

Classic example is the pool. People swimming doin their thing. In saunters tri coach with his squad 20 minutes before they are due to start. Athletes start posing and preening, doing stretches talking smack.

Coach or helper coach puts out lane reserved sign and informs swimmers that they have this lane booked, you say well in 20 minutes, they say yes but you have to get out. Say okay, keep swimming. They come back in ten minutes and tell you again you have to get out.

Squad then jumps in and starts swimming anyway 10 minutes before they have the lane. Confused looking public members say who are they as we all move over to another lane. A few of said they are triathletes, everyone goes ah okay.

Now could coach have used that scenario to encourage, even invite some people to join in and maybe become saying customers one day. They then spend most of the first 15 minutes of their squad standing on the pool deck looking at the white board doing weird things on dry land that looked like swimming.
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [stevie g] [ In reply to ]
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Got to your local 5 k run races, they do the same thing stand around in groups with club logos talking about themselves, wearing compression socks.

They run and are lucky if anyone goes under 22 minutes.

On the upside they generally don't infest bike races at all.
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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I personally am interested in pro races and am trying to get my pro card, so I'd be very happy if that side of the sport grew. I also think it's good for the sport to have things like super league and major league tri that can be televised and get people interested. I got into tri after being inspired by a local pro who won the first race I ever did, so there's also that side of things.

I think it's very short sighted to not care about your sport decreasing, or even wanting it to do so. Triathlon is a lot more than just ironman, as I said before. You can be an elitist asshole and want your races to remain 'exclusive', and that's ok I guess, but it's still good for the sport for a whole for the local sprint/Olympic scene to grow.
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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im in dallas/ft worth. coppell/valley ranch to be specific
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
I personally am interested in pro races and am trying to get my pro card, so I'd be very happy if that side of the sport grew. I also think it's good for the sport to have things like super league and major league tri that can be televised and get people interested. I got into tri after being inspired by a local pro who won the first race I ever did, so there's also that side of things.

I think it's very short sighted to not care about your sport decreasing, or even wanting it to do so. Triathlon is a lot more than just ironman, as I said before. You can be an elitist asshole and want your races to remain 'exclusive', and that's ok I guess, but it's still good for the sport for a whole for the local sprint/Olympic scene to grow.

It is hard to support someone's argument when they resort to name calling. Were the pioneers of our sport, many of whom were attracted to it precisely because it was practiced by so few people, elitist assholes? As I noted in my previous post, I agreed with the benefits of growth that you outlined, but I also can understand why some people would prefer a smaller sport and that doesn't mean they are elitist.

Meanwhile, I wish you all the best in getting your pro card while saying at the same time that neither I nor the sport owes you a living. And there were no pros when I did my first triathlon in 1980. It was simply a different challenge that I wanted to try despite my very limited swim ability. That same challenge is still there today for anyone who has never done a triathlon.
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sorry, the name calling was uncalled for. The way i see it it's one thing to try a new sport, it's another to say you like the sport being small and exclusive; especially with the way tri is going right now that means it's available mostly to those with the time and financial means to participate rather than physical ability. I don't want triathlon to become the new country club golf scene.

I support growth in professional racing because I like to see people going fast and that inspired me as a kid. I'm currently getting my masters for mechanical engineering, I fully understand that I'm almost certainly never going to be in a position to be a full time triathlete and I'm ok with that.
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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Read the article on the front page about Chris Stirling who won Celtman and Canadaman last year. His first race was an XTRI in 2012 on a steel bike costing 60 pound sterling (~$100).

The area in triathlon I would like to see growth in is olympic distance racing. There are plenty of sprints, HIMs and IMs. And there are a lot of "international distance" races where one or more legs are not exactly the same as an olympic, most typically shorter. There just don't seem to be a lot of solid olympic distance races to choose from.

The masters in mech is were your future lies. Triathlon and the pro card should just be for fun.
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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I'd also love to see a growth of Olympic distance races. People get too caught up in long course racing and forget about the short course stuff that usually got them started. My coach in MT said he thinks this is the main reason the sport is deteriorating in many areas. I feel like the sport would be a lot more sustainable if Olympic distance was the mainstay.
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [evokevin] [ In reply to ]
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"Trying to get involved in Triathlons just recently turn out to be far harder then i thought it would be. with facebook, google and basically every resource at my fingertips, it was amazingly hard to find people to train with locally, clubs to work with, and even my local bike shop hasnt been all that helpful in getting in touch with the right people. finding events to participate in (outside of ironman events), is almost on a "Who-you-know" basis to find the oddball webpage where the race and registration information is. my observation is that the resources to do this sport are far to segmented. if you want people to get involved at all levels, it needs to be everyone working together. bike shops, running stores, and swimming stores all need to participate with youth, clubs and events... it is afterall their clientele..."

This works really well in our area (Long Island) where athletes, coaches and stores all support each other. Athletes and coaches support the stores that in turn, put on the races and refer athletes to the coaches, while also running group training sessions, even though the retailers may cost a little more. A quick count of upcoming races is over 20 an hour or less from my home. Sprints up to 70.3's.
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [Cmore] [ In reply to ]
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Nobody should be leaving 5 gallon buckets or large bags (even if they are "transition" bags) at the bike racks. Use whatever you want to bring your stuff, but out of respect for other people, you should not be leaving this stuff at the racks. Put it along the fencing at the perimeter out of everyone's way.

I agree the people were douchy, what they should have said is something along the lines of those buckets could be obstacles, could easily be knocked over etc. and that is probably not the safest thing to have in transition and out of respect to other athletes consider other options in the future.

Think of it like this, if every single athlete had a 5 gallon bucket in the transition area, how do you think that would work out?
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Re: Bold Prediction - Triathlon to Rebound in 2018? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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This is my very first post ever, ever, to slowtwitch. Everyone's thoughts here resonate with mine exactly. I've had these sort of sad thoughts lately as for me Triathlon has somewhat lost its mojo- or maybe I've lost my mojo for triathlon temporarily. That's why I'm here, that's how I found this thread. I hope you have a few good laughs with my post.

I moved to Southern California in 2006 (the peak years) and have been competing in triathlon ever since. In the past 12 years here is what I've witnessed here in So-Cal

A few iconic, or cool, or unique races, completely folded. (LA Triathlon, Encinitas Triathlon, Playa del Rey Aquathlon, lake arrowhead triathlon, many more)

Most triathlons had at most a sprint/Olympic race going on at the same time at most. Maybe 5 years ago some races started offering Duathon,5k, fitnesswalk, kids race, aquathon, 1 mileswim, 1/2mile swim, heck lets have a potato sack race too, options all at the same time. I'm not sure that was the right approach and I don't see as much of that the last year as I used to so it probably wasn't.

Race sponsorship HAS dropped a lot, the back of my race T shirts from 2006-2009 look like the side of a Nascar Winston cup car, Insert Major company name here! Since 2010 to now the shirts are getting quite empty. 2018 = Tri Sponsored by , "frank's bike service, your aunt's bagel shop" end of the list. We also know after the 2008/9 depression as municipalities were hurting for money they were eager to charge race directors more. Bill the years half over and the budget is busted!, hey Frank what about this 4th of July 5k for how much can we bilk them to use the park?

2006 Many more usa triathlon stickers and swim bike run stickers on cars at your local gym, 2018 -Spartan Race helmet stickers, "Spartan-up" loud in your face cross-fit stickers on cars. ""Killer Cross-Fit Gym #982 that just open last month Sticker - where real men are made - roar""

There is some truth to what the veterans here are saying, yes when you met a triathlete 20 years ago the thinking was wow what kind of special breed of an amazing human being are you! As lightheir stated yes, when in 2018 Joe nonathlete cubicle next door signs up for "Ironman U" does 1 ironman triathlon and more or less quits the sport immediately when their done it takes away that "captures the imagination" essence of the sport. It's the same when I see an overweight lady on the bike running path year after year in her Ironman gear head to toe shuffling along at a walking pace, it just takes away that "captures the imagination" factor. People forget running a marathon had a wow factor 20 years ago because they shut down clock at 4hrs and 0minutes and disassembled the finish chute - when you ran a marathon it was assumed you ran it.

I listen to Bob Babbitt's show often, and the Endurance nation podcast often. It's been discussed on his show often lately, how do we grow triathlon now that the endurance marketplace has changed so dramatically. On the endurance nation podcast which I adore and learn so much from, I do see how the current state of training is very different from 12 years ago. I'm not saying you'll win a race or always win your age group but it seems now its been proven you can focus on being a bike beast and unless your an inherently bad runner your run will just take care of itself, you will move up the field. People use to train very differently for triathlons, kind of added to the mystique (how will this persons questionable strategy pay off? We won't know till race day) Now in 2018 Jim Vance explains to us, the higher the athletes watts per kilo, the more success they have, every, single time. Once we find the answer, the mystique goes away, Will the 6'2" power biker beat the 5'9" hill climbing beast, well, now we know the answer before the race starts.

I don't have any reason to believe triathlon will rebound, I believe it will level as some have said. Maybe the ironman brand may scale back just a bit? They have so many races now. USAT has a new CEO who in an interview last summer said he is very aware how they didn't do much to capture the imagination of people and make sure people were getting a great experience at triathlons. They were just like "well you know......., we provide insurance........, and we focus on our next Olympic team" so the new CEO is aware of some things that are lacking.

As for me, I'll take a break from 70.3, just doing three of them in three years I lost much swim/run speed. As we age we gravitate to longer slower events but I think its the exact opposite if what we should be doing. I'll probably hit up the races in so cal that I have never done before. Big bear lake seems like an epic place to race. I have a hard time dropping $160-180 to do the Orange County triathlon for the 5th time even though its under new direction. I remember in 2009 I did the USAT sprint nation championship right here in Laguna Beach and yes the race was loaded with fast people and I made some new friends but wow, Boy Scouts marking the course with iddy bitty chalk sticks, hand drawn arrow signs on paper, same rickety bike racks, and whoever started the race had khaki shorts and a golf shirt on - I thought some random beachgoer grabbed the bull horn and started the race? There was nothing "national championship" about it, I though oh my goodness this race was just not worth $140 or whatever was at the time - never did the Pacfic Coast Triathlon again even though for 7 years I now work 5 miles from the start line.

It's been depressing watching some non-IM branded 70.3 events start here in so-cal with so much fan fair only to fizzle and fade so fast - depressing to witness.

I'll work on finding my Mojo, like in the 2nd Austin Powers film, I hope triathlon can find a thing or two to keep it exciting. I'm not sure what they NEED to do, I think the veterans of sport have most of the answers.
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