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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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Here’s how a race a short’ish du. (I consider a sprint short’ish and Olympic “long’ish).

Run the 1st 5k really hard. Slightly slower than a stand alone 5k.

Bike really hard

Run the 2’nd run as hard as I can. It hurts a lot more than the 1st and is about 15-20 seconds slower per mile.
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [Rocky M] [ In reply to ]
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Hey, I trained many hours perfecting that man bun size and placement to fit perfectly within my helmet. You think my transitions times were just luck?! :)


I thought the course was super cool, especially shutting down the tollway for the bike. The whole race was just non stop up or down, and made it so hard to try and find any rhythm.
Bit unlucky with the weather because I wanted to explore the city some more. Seems like a great place to visit.

Alex Arman

Strava
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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B.McMaster wrote:
Here’s how a race a short’ish du. (I consider a sprint short’ish and Olympic “long’ish).

Run the 1st 5k really hard. Slightly slower than a stand alone 5k.

Bike really hard

Run the 2’nd run as hard as I can. It hurts a lot more than the 1st and is about 15-20 seconds slower per mile.

I am not going to lie - this sounds horrible!
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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teddygram wrote:
B.McMaster wrote:
Here’s how a race a short’ish du. (I consider a sprint short’ish and Olympic “long’ish).

Run the 1st 5k really hard. Slightly slower than a stand alone 5k.

Bike really hard

Run the 2’nd run as hard as I can. It hurts a lot more than the 1st and is about 15-20 seconds slower per mile.


I am not going to lie - this sounds horrible!

That's my approach and it's what make duathlons so challenging. And fun.
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [jeremyscarroll] [ In reply to ]
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jeremyscarroll wrote:
What were the overall thoughts on Greenville as a host city? Good course? Good destination? I'm considering adding this race to my calendar next year.

I thought it was great. Completely shut down interstate all to ourselves to bike on. Flat, fast run course, lightly rolling but fast bike course. Weather sucked but that's not their fault nor is it (as I understand it) typical. Very cheap to stay there, great restaurants. I'll go back if they hold it there again. And I drove from Boston.
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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JoeO wrote:
jeremyscarroll wrote:
What were the overall thoughts on Greenville as a host city? Good course? Good destination? I'm considering adding this race to my calendar next year.


I thought it was great. Completely shut down interstate all to ourselves to bike on. Flat, fast run course, lightly rolling but fast bike course. Weather sucked but that's not their fault nor is it (as I understand it) typical. Very cheap to stay there, great restaurants. I'll go back if they hold it there again. And I drove from Boston.

Yes, it was cool (figuratively and literally) riding on the Interstate. As hard as I tried, I couldn't hit the minimum speed limit (45) let alone the maximum (70) :-).

There was quite a contingent from the Boston area. No way I was going to drive, though.
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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HandHeartCrown wrote:
teddygram wrote:
B.McMaster wrote:
Here’s how a race a short’ish du. (I consider a sprint short’ish and Olympic “long’ish).

Run the 1st 5k really hard. Slightly slower than a stand alone 5k.

Bike really hard

Run the 2’nd run as hard as I can. It hurts a lot more than the 1st and is about 15-20 seconds slower per mile.


I am not going to lie - this sounds horrible!


That's my approach and it's what make duathlons so challenging. And fun.

Thank you for the advice - I can give it a practice run and see how it goes!
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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B.McMaster wrote:
Here’s how a race a short’ish du. (I consider a sprint short’ish and Olympic “long’ish).

Run the 1st 5k really hard. Slightly slower than a stand alone 5k.

Bike really hard

Run the 2’nd run as hard as I can. It hurts a lot more than the 1st and is about 15-20 seconds slower per mile.

Yeah, that's about right. All out on the first run (I usually run high 20 and my stand-alone PB is 19:30), smash the bike (250-270W, 3.1-3.3W/kg for me), and hang on for dear life on the second run (11-12ish for a normal sprint, where the second run is 2.5km. In your case you probably have to dial it back a little bit more in order to not completely die). That typically nets me an AG 50-54 podium, very often a first, and a top-5 overall (granted, our duathlons are typically not stacked).

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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teddygram wrote:
Rocky,

Thank you very much for this information!

It helps me with some ideas - not going to lie I think a Duathlon is going to be a lot harder than a Triathlon for me as I always try to setup for the run!

This will take me out of my comfort zone completely.

Thank you again!

You're welcome! Personally, I do not find duathlons *harder* than triathlons. Each course has its own merits and hard things about them be it tri or du. I do enjoy that I don't have to pack a wetsuit & worry about it getting cut or torn, or punched in the face during the swim, or getting into something that has sharks or jellyfish swimming around, or freezing water. In saying that, I'm not a horrible swimmer either, so that isn't affecting what I just said. But I equally enjoy both sports & most of all, the competition & pushing to see what I can do. As for awards, most often they get a quick glance & tossed into an AVON box & never taken out again. Do it for the love of the sport man! It's all good & keeps the fat off me.
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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teddygram wrote:
B.McMaster wrote:
Here’s how a race a short’ish du. (I consider a sprint short’ish and Olympic “long’ish).

Run the 1st 5k really hard. Slightly slower than a stand alone 5k.

Bike really hard

Run the 2’nd run as hard as I can. It hurts a lot more than the 1st and is about 15-20 seconds slower per mile.

I am not going to lie - this sounds horrible!

It’s a painful hour but sure beats long course where you are out there for 10’ish hours. Each to their own.
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [More Cowbell] [ In reply to ]
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Cow, I talked to Tim Yount about this & if you recall, the first turn around was just before railroad tracks (just like St. Paul on why that was short). They couldn't get the okay to close that part of the road--which doesn't make sense to me because they could have easily done it at the OTHER end of the run. However, if you recall, there were also the carpeted railroad tracks on the opposite end we had to drive over on your bikes. So why did he say that ? Tracks at both ends...one they couldn't get a permit for & one was carpeted. Odd indeed.

Agree on St. Paul, that blew.
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [Rocky M] [ In reply to ]
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The tracks at the bottom of the course were inactive so no risk of trains.

The tracks at the top of the course were active. I did an AirBnB nearby and could hear the trains. I suspect they couldn't stop any possible train traffic as easily as they could close the Interstate.
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [Rocky M] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Guys!

I’m getting more excited as we go - absolutely right to it being a challenge and I can really push my mediocre run :P

It’s all about the tacos at the end for me!!
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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doublea334 wrote:
I didn’t race today, but yeah it was short or timing matt error.

Jesse Bauer ran a 14:42 “5K” on the results, but his Strava had him split off 5:15 5:18 5:14 miles for his run.

Late to the party, but can confirm. Further, I have no idea what "timing mat" that 14:42 came from, because I started my watch at the gun and lapped it at the mat at the Run In, and got 15:56 for 4.85km.
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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So if they were inactive, it makes me wonder why they didn't just extend the run to make it even towards the Toll Rd. end of the run course. Hmmm...ran out of orange cones maybe? ;-)
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [Rocky M] [ In reply to ]
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Any farther towards the toll road and we would have run into the bike out. They should just call it what it is. Still not sure why everyone's time is a minute short on the draft-legal sprint i'm sure they know about it by now. They had me at 16:56 and I was at 17:56 for just short of 3 miles. Hit mile 3 going right into transition.

Great course, lots a fun, did the draft-legal and non-draft sprint. Loved the different formats.

MC
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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Question for the M45-49 group.

Any-one want to trade their worlds standard distance slot for my sprint one? I asked USAT if I could switch and they told me no... I have absolutely no desire to do a draft race,
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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B.McMaster wrote:
Question for the M45-49 group.

Any-one want to trade their worlds standard distance slot for my sprint one? I asked USAT if I could switch and they told me no... I have absolutely no desire to do a draft race,

I'm a diesel not a sprinter--otherwise, it would be a good trade. Pain wouldn't last as long ;-)
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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B.McMaster wrote:
Question for the M45-49 group.

Any-one want to trade their worlds standard distance slot for my sprint one? I asked USAT if I could switch and they told me no... I have absolutely no desire to do a draft race,

Out of curiosity, can I ask why you're not interested? There's nothing wrong with not wanting to do DL, I'm just curious why not.
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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HandHeartCrown wrote:
B.McMaster wrote:
Question for the M45-49 group.

Any-one want to trade their worlds standard distance slot for my sprint one? I asked USAT if I could switch and they told me no... I have absolutely no desire to do a draft race,


Out of curiosity, can I ask why you're not interested? There's nothing wrong with not wanting to do DL, I'm just curious why not.

1) The idea of sitting on some-one's wheel for 12 miles seems like a higher risk than riding solo. I'd be worried he'd do something that I didn't expect (not something wrong - just unexpected) and then we would crash. I'm crash adverse so those 12 miles would not be fun for me. 2) I'd have to buy a new bike and I'd rather not. 3) I use to have a road bike and didn't enjoy riding it nearly as much as my tri-bike so I can imagine I'd start liking it more now if I did have the bike.
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [More Cowbell] [ In reply to ]
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More Cowbell wrote:
Yeah, the Overall and Age Group podium positions should be based on gun time and not chip time. Just look at the men's 50-54 AG in the draft-legal sprint, the top 4 in that division finished within 19-seconds of one another. Marcus Alexander was the first to cross the line but lost the national title because he "got chipped" by 4-seconds by Mark Hecox. Keith Marshall and Michael Collins were only 1-second apart in chip time but I'm not certain who crossed the line first.

So changing to gun time from chip time would be my recommendation to USAT for all of their national championship events AND to break the wave start into more groups - at least the 3 divisions of open, masters and grand masters for men and women.

Greenville was a good venue. It was on par with Bend and a lot better than St. Paul. I'm not sure why they couldn't get the distances correct for the runs or the bike because they had the room to place the turn-arounds further apart. The transition lanes could have used carpeting to improve the shattered asphalt.

Finally, it was a huge surprise to see "DU" branded clothing for sale in the merch tent!!! Nice that USAT is finally recognizing duathletes.

--

I don't work for USAT, so I'm not sure about this, but it seems there are two reasons for the use of chip times over gun times.

The first is the issue with ageing-up. If someone is 34 and in the 30--34 age ground, they'll be aged-up to the 35--39 age group. You cannot use place to determine their position in the new age group.

The second is safety at the start line. Allowing athletes to start at the back with no penalty makes it less stressful for everyone.
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [Desert Tortoise] [ In reply to ]
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Desert Tortoise wrote:

I don't work for USAT, so I'm not sure about this, but it seems there are two reasons for the use of chip times over gun times.

The first is the issue with ageing-up. If someone is 34 and in the 30--34 age ground, they'll be aged-up to the 35--39 age group. You cannot use place to determine their position in the new age group.

The second is safety at the start line. Allowing athletes to start at the back with no penalty makes it less stressful for everyone.

That first point doesn't make sense... You're still racing the people around you, aging up or not. When I've been racing for qualifying spots, I'm making sure that I try to pass/catch anyone I can see that is in the age group beneath me, just in case (or the one above me, if I am in an age up year...)...

I get the safety at the line point, but have rarely seen a duathlon where it took more than 5seconds for everyone to cross the line on a mass start (usually if it gets beyond that, they split the field into a few waves, as they do at ITU worlds).
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Trauma wrote:
Desert Tortoise wrote:


I don't work for USAT, so I'm not sure about this, but it seems there are two reasons for the use of chip times over gun times.

The first is the issue with ageing-up. If someone is 34 and in the 30--34 age ground, they'll be aged-up to the 35--39 age group. You cannot use place to determine their position in the new age group.

The second is safety at the start line. Allowing athletes to start at the back with no penalty makes it less stressful for everyone.


That first point doesn't make sense... You're still racing the people around you, aging up or not. When I've been racing for qualifying spots, I'm making sure that I try to pass/catch anyone I can see that is in the age group beneath me, just in case (or the one above me, if I am in an age up year...)...

I get the safety at the line point, but have rarely seen a duathlon where it took more than 5seconds for everyone to cross the line on a mass start (usually if it gets beyond that, they split the field into a few waves, as they do at ITU worlds).

The first point makes perfect sense. You're just have a hard time thinking it through. And you've goofed up my second point.

Allow me to help. Again...

Nationals are not just about determining a US champion who crosses the finish line first. They are also a qualifying event for World's. In fact, that's exactly what the vast majority of competitors are there for. The age-ing up issue requires that you either have everyone on the starting line at the same time, or you use time for everyone. You need one ruler. For everyone.

Because the venues usually have space issues, they've gone with time, applied it across all races and have informed all competitors of this. That means Nationals are less about racing head-to-head and more about time trialing. And everyone knows this before the race starts.


(Your strategy of racing against other competitors is probably not a great approach since you and everyone else is racing against the clock. They told you that before the race stated.)

If you are coming to the finish line, you'd better not ease up for any reason because you are still competing against people you might not be able to see. If you are in the lead and racing for the title, then you need to do your best to the line since the guy behind you may have started 10 seconds after you. And if you are racing for a spot on the National team, you'd better do the same since the aging up process could knock you down eight places. (That happened to me in 2015. Sucked.)

If you think the safety issues just involve getting across the start line within five seconds, then you seem to not recall Nationals in Bend. The first and last 1/2 mile was run on a thin path made of boards placed on top of wet grass with two directions of traffic. I waited 10 seconds before starting and still had trouble. This was a safety issue brought on by the configurations of the venue, and the USAT folks did the best they could.

So the USAT folks went with time for perfectly good reasons. And told everyone before the race started. They could go with your approach, but it would add another layer of complexity to an already complex situation. I'm not against your suggestion to treat Nationals as two distinct races (National Championship and World Qualifier) held at the same time but under different rules, but I wouldn't want to be the one explaining it to everyone.

Does that help?
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [Desert Tortoise] [ In reply to ]
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Desert Tortoise wrote:
Trauma wrote:
Desert Tortoise wrote:


I don't work for USAT, so I'm not sure about this, but it seems there are two reasons for the use of chip times over gun times.

The first is the issue with ageing-up. If someone is 34 and in the 30--34 age ground, they'll be aged-up to the 35--39 age group. You cannot use place to determine their position in the new age group.

The second is safety at the start line. Allowing athletes to start at the back with no penalty makes it less stressful for everyone.


That first point doesn't make sense... You're still racing the people around you, aging up or not. When I've been racing for qualifying spots, I'm making sure that I try to pass/catch anyone I can see that is in the age group beneath me, just in case (or the one above me, if I am in an age up year...)...

I get the safety at the line point, but have rarely seen a duathlon where it took more than 5seconds for everyone to cross the line on a mass start (usually if it gets beyond that, they split the field into a few waves, as they do at ITU worlds).


The first point makes perfect sense. You're just have a hard time thinking it through. And you've goofed up my second point.

Allow me to help. Again...

Nationals are not just about determining a US champion who crosses the finish line first. They are also a qualifying event for World's. In fact, that's exactly what the vast majority of competitors are there for. The age-ing up issue requires that you either have everyone on the starting line at the same time, or you use time for everyone. You need one ruler. For everyone.

Because the venues usually have space issues, they've gone with time, applied it across all races and have informed all competitors of this. That means Nationals are less about racing head-to-head and more about time trialing. And everyone knows this before the race starts.


(Your strategy of racing against other competitors is probably not a great approach since you and everyone else is racing against the clock. They told you that before the race stated.)

If you are coming to the finish line, you'd better not ease up for any reason because you are still competing against people you might not be able to see. If you are in the lead and racing for the title, then you need to do your best to the line since the guy behind you may have started 10 seconds after you. And if you are racing for a spot on the National team, you'd better do the same since the aging up process could knock you down eight places. (That happened to me in 2015. Sucked.)

If you think the safety issues just involve getting across the start line within five seconds, then you seem to not recall Nationals in Bend. The first and last 1/2 mile was run on a thin path made of boards placed on top of wet grass with two directions of traffic. I waited 10 seconds before starting and still had trouble. This was a safety issue brought on by the configurations of the venue, and the USAT folks did the best they could.

So the USAT folks went with time for perfectly good reasons. And told everyone before the race started. They could go with your approach, but it would add another layer of complexity to an already complex situation. I'm not against your suggestion to treat Nationals as two distinct races (National Championship and World Qualifier) held at the same time but under different rules, but I wouldn't want to be the one explaining it to everyone.

Does that help?

I agree on both points. The Age Up issue is especially important when the Age Up occurs across waves. In Grenville, the 49 year old men (who are aging up into 50 for Worlds) were in the wave before the 50-53 year old men (all of whom were competing for Worlds spots in M50-54). In this case, the M50-53 are racing against someone they can't see and who started several minutes earlier. Kinda like podium spots in time-trial starts where you may not see whom your competing against.

The Greenville course had a very narrow start area (made even narrower by the Roka start arch) that did a 90 degree right turn up a hill to the road within the first 100 feet (if that). Saturday's race was raining and the road was a tad slippery. In those conditions, if was better to be safe than be sorry.
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Re: 2018 Duathlon Championships - April 7-8 Greenville SC [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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Funny you used that as an example. I am exactly that person (48 but aging up to 49 in a few weeks--so raced *as* a 49 year old) in the Standard race in the 45-49 AG. However, since World's is in 2019, this race actually has me racing as a 50 year old slot guy (despite being 48 as I write this). *Technically* I was the first guy 45-49 who was across the line...but got beat out by one guy who started as 40-44 AG (he is 44) racing as a 45-49 year old because his bday is also in May. If that isn't confusing...then maybe it's time for another beer. It boils down to that "what age you will be on Dec. 31 of that race year the race is held..."

Too bad the guy took off shortly after he crossed the line & disappeared, it would have been good all have a podium picture together at the awards--to win a National AG Championship on your first ever duathlon was amazing...I'd think it would've been cool for him to go claim his awards. But he never showed at awards.
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