we talked about this in a thread last week---the general consensus was yes they are like miracle diets. Lose 80lbs in 8 weeks and 13 weeks with 10 hrs a week to a sub 12 HR IM are equal in bull, unless like you said youre gifted. I'll mention a friend again, who consistently runs 17 min 5ks and 36-37 min 10ks on 5 miles a week.

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You definitely need to put in some long days to be successful. If the 13 hours has one 6-7 hour day, then you're not doing much the rest of the week.

I worked with Rick Niles for my first year and change in triathlon when I was over-worked and under-trained. He got me comfortably across the line in my first Ironman on probably less than eight hours/week of training. While I've since proceeded to gradually build up my volume and improve my IM time over that debut by 85 minutes, his stationary trainer sessions were some of the hardest and most effective workouts I've ever done and I still refer to them when I need some quality sessions.

Another friend of mine, Art Hutchinson, set his best IM time after averaging around eight hours/week of training. Again, his coach was really big on quality CompuTrainer sessions.

There's still no getting around heavy volume when it's time to cover century rides. I probably did four centuries under Rick's program prior to my first IM, but rarely ran more than 20 km. at a time. After this weekend I'll have four centuries under my wheels this month alone, but I'm no longer on the low volume program.

Jeremy,

Could you reference the thread you mention...I would like to read it. Did Fleck participate? He is the master of the 10 training week.

Fizzy, I do think it can be done. I am over 40, have 2 young kids with a 3rd on the way. Last year I did IMC in under 11 hrs on 10 hrs a week training. Although I surprised myself, it can be done. There are a lot of factors including genetics, experience, base fitness, luck, etc. Note, I am no super athlete, but have been doing this for a long, long time (tris 22 yrs, 12IMs).

Good Luck!

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

I think the answer to low volume programs is, it depends. I know of at least one person who did the 13 weeks to 13 hour IM and accomplished that goal. If you check xtri.com, a recent story by Ray Brit accompanied by loads of charts shows his biggest volume weeks were around 13-14 hours and he averaged 8.5/week and qualified for Kona. In his case and the case of my friend both had a hugh base, primarily in running.

I can tell you that for my first IM I only had one century and a hugh running base - four marathons in a 12 month period. While my IM time continued to improve, my best run was in my first IM.

Fizzy,

I intend to follow a plan very similar to Gale Bernhardt's 13 week plan. Simple reason: I have little other choice if I want to fulfill my present goal of completing IMF in November. I work an average of 60 hours per week (an erratic trial lawyer's schedule) and have a 4-year-old son. Last year I did 2 1/2 IMs on very low volume, with an average of 7-8 hours per week. My times were not stellar - midpack times of 6:01 and 5:59 - but breaking 6 hours was my goal, so I am very pleased. I also suffered no injuries on this lower volume approach. I actually had very decent swims and competitive bikes (21 MPH on one course) . . . followed by totally pathetic runs.

I have exchanged e-mails with Gale and would encourage you to do likewise. She is very friendly and helpful in explaining her plan. Read the testimonials as well and contact those people too. I have a time goal of 12:30, but if I can't break 13, so what. My goal is to finish respectfully and without injury, all the while having fun like I did in my 1/2 IMs.

Good luck.

Robert

Guys, thanks for the comments

The weight of opinion seems to be that, if I'm purely out for an injury-free, same-day finish with my marriage still intact and my kids not calling me "uncle", this could be a route - I'm currently getting in 11 hrs/wk for this year's Olympic season (where I'm typically a top quartile finisher in 30-34) no problems.

I would expect to augment these hours with a few strategically timed centuries and a marathon or two for confidence but that's fine - I'm a biker anyway with 8 centuries in the last 6 months.

What's the typical workout structure & intensity with this approach - is it all hyper-intense (ie injury-prone) or something more measured?

Cheers Everyone, Phil (UK)

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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses—behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights"

If you are already training 11 hours a week and have been for some time, then I would say that doing an IM on the average of weekly training is definately doable. Note the emphasis on average - see below)

I will make one assumption prior to some tips - that you are in decent swim shape. By that I mean that you can swim 1 hour to 1 hour and 15 minutes at a steady pace and it not kill you:

1. Don't worry about the swim( see assumption above). Swim once a week to keep feel and fitness

2. Your LSD goals are to bulid up to a 3 hr run and a 5 1/2 ride over the course of several months

3. Then incorporate "faster" shorter runs of 2 hours and 3 - 4 hrs where you are running/riding for extended periods of time faster than IM race pace. 1/2 IM races are in actuality perfect training.

4. Throw in a few long bricks 3 - 4 hr ride/2 hr run

5. Get away from focusing on average training time of 10 - 11 hrs: Have some really hard weeks 15 - 20 hrs total followd by some really easy weeks with no more than 5 hours training.( see threads on Epic Training here on SlowTwitch) Over the course of your training season your average time should be the same (about 10 hrs), what is different is the range between the really hard big weeks and the easy weeks. Surprisingly, most people just don't get this.

Hope that this helps.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

First, I'm no coach. I'm no great Ironman guy either, I think my IM PR is 10:45:00 +/-. Having got that out of the way, To me the answer to this question has more to do with the type of expereince you want for the race. Do you just want to survive and finish? It won't be pretty, but this approach and a whole lot of determination with a healthy dose of luck will probably get you across the line. Do you want to have an "easier" more graceful experience where the last 13 miles of the run are something more than a death march? You'll probably have to add the miles. Great thing about this event: There are no shortcuts. It is the real world.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I would suggest you actually look at the program. The numbers bandied about are AVERAGES. There are some 14-15 hour weeks in there. I know a number of people who have used the 13 weeks (note it says weeks, not hours) program and they have all finished, some faster (like 10:xx), some slower (14:xx). For someone who has a busy schedule and wants to finish, it seems like a great program.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I agree with Cathy. if you are talking about Gayle's 13 week to a 13 hour program, it does work up to a 3hour run and a 5 hour bike, so there are reasonably long workouts involved. it's just that most of the long sessions are on the weekend and the hours during the week are a little more managable for a working human. Besides the athlete profile that she gives specifies that you are an "experienced Triathlete" with certain base levels of fitness that she outlines; so it's not like you start as an out of shape couch potato state are ready to Ironman after 13 weeks.

I think I can speak intelligently on this subject since in two IMs, I had Michael McCormack as a coach for one and used Gales' 13 hours to a sub 13 hr IM. The results:
First IM under Mike: 14:40
Second IM using generic program: 12:39

I was very overtrained with Michael as the workouts weren't long but very intense. Gale's plan was smart and manageable. Yeah, I did several 3 hr runs and two centuries with Gale but the weekday stuff was never more than an 1hr or so. I never felt overtrained and I got the starting line feeling great. I would have gone under 12 hours if not for a bike mechanical. I know many others who have used Gales program and went under 12 hours. Hope that helps. I still believe in personal coaching but It's not the only way.

On the subject of generic programs, take a look at Mark Allen's 18 week ones for IM racing; there are two programs available ("basic" and "advanced"). Like Gale B, he weighs things very heavily towards the weekends and in fact gets you up to 6 hour riding, but during the week it is certainly doable...not much in the ways of planned days off but at least two days per week of training only once a day. The frequency of activity is consistent from week to week as well. I can't say from experience that it will get you where you want to go, but it looks pretty good when you go over it and I am planning to use it this summer. I think the help you get from a generic program depends most on :

1. How disorganized/ lazy/ confused you are to start with.

2. Not picking a program too ambitious for YOU.

3. Ability to listen to your body and act on it rather than pushing thru because it is on your program.

[reply][reply]

I don't think you can say the results are so cut and dried. I know a lot of people who use Michael and they don't put in the huge volume of some others. How much of your improvement was not being an IM virgin and a better base? How far apart were the races? Not questioning that you were overtrained, but I think there are too many variables to say it ~was~ the reason.[/reply]

Yes, Cathy you are right. It's not so cut and dry. I loved Michaels' workouts but for an ironvirgin with a full-time job it was way too much. Hard intervals on the bike followed by intervals on the track tuesdays and thursdays just wore me down. He obviously knows what he's doing as many of his athletes perform exceedingly well every year, he just didn't work out for me.

I will do my first Ironman this summer. I have also a son, wife, job and not hours to spend for training.
Currently I train about 7 hours a week (since November). When it gets warmer and lighter in the morning I will train 10+ hours a week. But I will rarely or never reach 15 hours. Probably only when I do a real long ride (180km).
Generally you see that most people train very much for an Ironman. But I saw also reports of people who trained only 7-9 hours a week for an IM and did well.
I plan to train on average ~10 hours and see what time I reach at my first IM and how much I suffer. Then I will adjust my training for next season.
But of course I train longer than 13 weeks for this Ironman. It will have trained 36 weeks when I do Ironman Switzerland.

Felix

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http://www.weilenmann.ch.vu

I worked with Michael M. through the winter and spring last year. I was doing great when I was focused on Oly's and Half's. But, the step up to IM training had me shattered week after week. Like Herschel says, track intervals, tempo runs and brutally hard bike workouts every week (2 "quality" sessions a week running and biking) were waaaay too much for this rookie. I would have weeks where, by Tuesday evening, I was shot for the week, and I would limp through everything else and skip the Sunday long run. I switched over to more traditional training 8 weeks out from IM day (with Mike Plumb) and managed to pull it together for a 13-hour finish. By "traditional training" I mean lots of steady paced, moderate efforts; the focus was on on long rides, run frequency and overall recovery. My average training week from January to July was 8 hours. Peak weeks were 11-12 (including long rides).

Michael is brilliant and committed. If I had five years behind me and was ready for a go-for-it year, I think his approach would surely work. I just think that you need to be one tough hombre to do his workouts as IM prep. If you're an Oly racer, I guarantee you'll get fast under Michael's coaching.

What were some of these intense trainer sessions? I would like to add some good workouts to my trainer repitoire.

Daniel



"It is a pity for a man to grow old and never know the strength and endurance of which the body is capable." --Socrates

I am an interesting case study. I did IM Hawaii in 2000 and got third in my age group. Prior to that race, I had never done a race of longer than three hours (I had qualified at Muskoka), I had never biked 100 miles, and my longest ever run was 16 miles. I had been doing triathlons for ten years at that point, but I had always stayed with the sprint and international distance races since I swim well and run poorly.

My average weekly training volumes for that year were 7800 yards swimming, 53 miles biking, and 18 miles running. So, yes, it is definitely possible to have a good race at Ironman on modest training. What made the difference for me was that I got excellent advice from an Ironman vet about pacing and nutrition--things I never had to worry about in my short races.

In a short course race the mantra streaming through my mind is something like "Am I going as fast as I possibly can? Can I handle one more gear? Am I aero? etc." At Ironman my mantra was more like "Am I going too fast? Am I taking in enough calories/fluids/salt? Do I need to slow down?" It’s a completely different mindset with the emphasis on pacing and nutrition rather than speed. I just kept plugging away at what seemed like a slow pace (compared to my short course racing) and eventually I made it to the finish line. I beat a lot of people who were in a lot better shape than I simply because they didn't pace properly or ignored their nutritional needs.

Hey Tom, I love ya, but noone "thinks" their IM PR is such and such.......You "know" your IM PR! Is this your "ah shucks" mode?

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

I used the program for my first IM distance race. I didn't finish in 13 hours, but I was concerned more with finishing. I stayed conservative and still finished in 14 hours.

I was 45 and in fair shape to begin with. And had done enough half IMs to help with the mental part of the game.

The point is, that while it may not work for many people, it isn't a bogus diet program either. If you make those workouts "count" someone who is in good condition and has some race experience going into the program, should be able to make it work for them.

I am not a professional athlete but I have done a few sub 10hr IM, raced Hawaii and have a first class honours degree in Exercise Science (kinesiology for the Americans/Canadians). I have trained for less than 10hrs a week to over 30 hours a week whilst competing in IM events, all with good results



Training is an individual thing, and what works for one will not necessarily work for another. I have never trained for ‘only’ 13 weeks in order to race an IM, I have always planned my race at least a year in advance. I find it hard to see how you can build an endurance base in less time as many of the physiological adaptations required to race at your optimum take a year to develop to their full potential. But assuming you have your base in my humble opinion there are two fundamental principles you must take into account in order to race an IM



Ø Firstly you must balance the amount of training you do (stress applied) with the amount of recovery you need. This is a complicated equation with a whole myriad of individual circumstances to be taken into account. For me I now work long hours for six days and then have four days off, so it works for me to train really hard for those four days and do very little for the next six in order to recover and be ready to hit it hard again my next set of four days off work. You do not get fitter by training, you only break your body down, it is during recovery you make all your gains. The amount of training you can do is capped by the amount of rest you can get. ‘More is better’ the more rest you get the more training you can do.



Ø Secondly is the law of specificity; i.e. to be a good at an IM events you need to do them in training. I am not a fan of going to the gym when you could be out on the bike or doing a hard 10 mile time trail for a ten hour triathlon. For what they are worth here are my four key sessions:



o 1) In winter I gat my base and do lots of swim technique training as this has always capped my swim ability, not my fitness. Then as soon as I can swim under the hour I back off the volume as it gives me a diminishing return after that. I can maintain that pace on very little swim training after that but I need to swim 1000’s of meters more a week in order to take a minute or two off my time.

o 2) Shorter race pace or slightly above (the law of overload) sessions i.e. your two hour turbo sessions followed by a ten mile run

o 3) Longer race distance or slightly below i.e. 80 miles on the bike at a little below race pace followed by a 10k run at a little above race pace or a 40k bike followed by a three hour run.

o 5) Finally you cannot beat full individual distance time trials on similar courses to the one you are going to race on (or better yet the same course) to find your pace.



In summary there is no reason you cannot race a good IM on ‘around’ ten hours a week if that’s all you have but remember never sacrifice recovery in order to do more. On ten hours a week you must do quality training (brick sessions are a must), work on your weaknesses, get a swim coach, watch your diet, know your race and train appropriately for it (if its hilly do hills, this isn’t brain surgery) and finally have a really strong positive attitude. Do all this and you will stand on the start line with confidence and be looking forward to what lies ahead.



Well thats what I think anyway, good luck and above all enjoy the journey



AndyA

When Gale wrote the 13 weeks to a sub 13hr IM, she didn't mean you don't do anything for 39 weeks and then begin IM training. She assumes, and says it in her articles, that you are already in decent shape and can swim for an hour, bike 50 miles and run 10 - or something like that. The 13 weeks is just the final build and taper to the race.

If you want to have a quality race you have to put in the quality time. There is no short-cut, no miracle program. These races are long and hard. You have to train long and hard. "The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in combat".

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com