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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [gplama] [ In reply to ]
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gplama wrote:
rruff wrote:
SteveMc wrote:
seeing respected national track coaches advocate low inertia means I'm less willing to dismiss it.


Who is specifically advocating low inertia?


RevBox go pretty hard on it on their website. Pulling in scientificy looking people to sell...er.. talk about it.

Don't believe the sales pitch. High inertia trainers are inherently heavier and more complicated (expensive), but they do a much better job of simulating reality. Though it is theoretically possible that low inertia provides a training benefit even though it's unrealistic, I doubt it very much. The story that it's helpful to apply even force throughout the pedal stroke has been disproven.
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Don't believe the sales pitch.

Oh don't worry. I don't, and didn't when I reviewed their unit a while back. I'm keen to hear Ray's take on it. He's had one for a while now in the collection.

Shane Miller - GPLama

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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
SteveMc wrote:
seeing respected national track coaches advocate low inertia means I'm less willing to dismiss it.


Who is specifically advocating low inertia?

Tom Don: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAgflXV-cPM
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [jsk] [ In reply to ]
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question not specifically directed to you, but to anyone who can provide input on this topic:

I've read several people on different threads mentioned that Neo is harder in erg mode than the KickR, because in the KickR in erg mode if you are in bigger gears you can generate more inertia. Especially for above FTP intervals.

If I currently use a KickR in erg mode in small chainring only for my above FTP intervals, would I notice those same workouts to be harder if I do them on a Neo?
Are erg mode workouts in a Neo harder than doing those in a computrainer?

Questions above are assuming power is stable during intervals on a Neo and not having significant jumps, as I read one way to solve that is using the Neo in erg mode in small chainring.

I have a very good opportunity on a Neo, so curious to hear about that.
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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pabloarc wrote:
I've read several people on different threads mentioned that Neo is harder in erg mode than the KickR, because in the KickR in erg mode if you are in bigger gears you can generate more inertia. Especially for above FTP intervals.

If I currently use a KickR in erg mode in small chainring only for my above FTP intervals, would I notice those same workouts to be harder if I do them on a Neo?

If by "harder" you mean that you expend more watts on a Neo than a KICKR, then no, they should be the same. Assume that they are both accurate or both are using an external PM for power match, the rotational inertial is irrelevant in steady state (you are not changing cadence within a fixed gear). The impact would be that the KICKR would need to apply more braking force to overcome the inertia, but it would match the same system input power needed or requested. Imagine it in the extreme. Picture that it has a two ton flywheel. It would take an enormous amount of power to get it moving from rest, but after that, the sucker would just want to spin. However, the brake just needs to apply enough power to overcome the inertia so that you need to apply your target watts to keep the system steady state.

The difference in feel between a system with no inertia versus huge inertia would be what happens during changes. It would take way more braking from the trainer to slow it down and way more power from you to speed it up-- cadence changes without changing gears.

In your example, when you do those intervals that go from recover to >FTP, if you do not change cadence, then both systems only need to apply the same braking force to equal your target watts. However, if you do a spin drill, you would likely spike power more to accelerate the flywheel.
Last edited by: exxxviii: Nov 16, 17 16:15
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, yes, my question was with the assumption both were accurate.

Based on your response, I see it shouldn't take me more effort to maintain the same watts in erg mode in a Neo vs a KickR.
Was curious as I saw comments from Tacx Neo users on threads saying it's a lot more taxing to do above FTP erg mode intervals on a Neo vs on a KickR because the Neo have no inertia in erg mode.
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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pabloarc wrote:
question not specifically directed to you, but to anyone who can provide input on this topic:

I've read several people on different threads mentioned that Neo is harder in erg mode than the KickR, because in the KickR in erg mode if you are in bigger gears you can generate more inertia. Especially for above FTP intervals.

If I currently use a KickR in erg mode in small chainring only for my above FTP intervals, would I notice those same workouts to be harder if I do them on a Neo?

ERG in the small ring on the Kickr is different to ERG in the big ring.... same power, same rpm, different experience. Here's my take on this showing the differences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHUOhmG04M8

The Neo is less forgiving in ERG mode, especially when it comes to efforts at or over FTP. The inertia on the Kickr (especially with a higher flywheel speed) can be a real benefit in this case. As the Neo is effectively software controlled, there's no reason the 'feel' can't be optimised/customised/adjusted within whatever software is being used to control it. IIRC the optimal setting for flat TT work was to select the TT bike profile and set a -1/-2% slope in their training app.

*Disclaimers. High level overview by someone (me) with no expertise in the field of biomechanics. I just ride trainers. A lot.

Shane Miller - GPLama

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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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The differences people discuss are probably more to do with the philosophy about the controls system and not as much about the flywheel. There is some serious magic going on and some high-end controls and feedback that requires some pretty high-level calculus. Here is a simplification of what is going on...

Imagine the trainer has a PM on its axle that it is using to measure the power coming in. When it gets a power setting, it is comparing the input power to the setting, and choosing to either decrease or increase the braking force. However, a rider's input power is not continuous, it is a pulse that occurs at 2x pedal cadence. So, the controls system has to have some latency to not immediately release the brake when you hit the bottom of the pedal stroke or jam it on when you are at 3:00. And, it needs to be overridden by the fact that you may choose to speed up or slow down your cadence, so it has to allow this without totally releasing or jamming the brake before you get to your new desired cadence.

So, the controls system is taking many samples and then deciding how quickly to respond and how hard to hit or release the brake. If it acts too abruptly with the brake, it could create sensations of jerkiness. If it lags too much as you are changing your inputs, it may allow greater deviations from set power. These decision in the controls system would have a significant impact on how it feels. And, this is happening largely independently of the freewheel.
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [gplama] [ In reply to ]
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based on your experience, how would you compare "erg mode workout with above ftp intervals with KickR in small ring" vs "erg mode workout with above ftp intervals in Tacx Neo in small ring (however it seems that gear in Neo erg mode workout is irrelevant?)

I currently do all of my KickR erg mode workouts in small ring.
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, I see that size of the fly wheel in erg mode might not be that important considering how the brakes need to act on the training so the desired power is maintained.
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is that high inertia feels like riding on a flat while low inertia feels like climbing. So, if you're doing 300W @ 90rpm in the little ring and big cog then it will feel like you're going up a hill, but in 53x11 will feel like flat. And yes, they will feel different. Moreover that difference vary between individuals. Some people say a watt is a watt, but that's BS. It depends on your physiology. The muscle firing patterns are different for flat vs. climbing and people are usually better at one than the other.
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [H. Legs] [ In reply to ]
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H. Legs wrote:
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is that high inertia feels like riding on a flat while low inertia feels like climbing.

Inertia plays a role, but there are two other huge factors...

One is that the system is moving a lot faster. So, the samples are happening faster and the feedback loop and ability to respond is different.

But the bigger factor is the braking force. At low speed, the braking force is 2x to 3x greater. So, slight variations in input power would feel very different against the higher resistance.

Combine the two, and you have a totally different feel.
Last edited by: exxxviii: Nov 16, 17 18:50
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
gplama wrote:
rruff wrote:
SteveMc wrote:
seeing respected national track coaches advocate low inertia means I'm less willing to dismiss it.


Who is specifically advocating low inertia?


Though it is theoretically possible that low inertia provides a training benefit even though it's unrealistic, I doubt it very much. The story that it's helpful to apply even force throughout the pedal stroke has been disproven.


A low inertia trainer would be useful for simulating hill climbing, but if you wanted to simulate the feel of drafting in a peloton or motor pacing, you would need a high inertia trainer.
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [H. Legs] [ In reply to ]
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H. Legs wrote:
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is that high inertia feels like riding on a flat while low inertia feels like climbing. So, if you're doing 300W @ 90rpm in the little ring and big cog then it will feel like you're going up a hill, but in 53x11 will feel like flat. And yes, they will feel different. Moreover that difference vary between individuals. Some people say a watt is a watt, but that's BS. It depends on your physiology. The muscle firing patterns are different for flat vs. climbing and people are usually better at one than the other.


This is exactly what I did in the video linked above... while mapping the pedal stroke with the 2INpower (50hz). It was interesting to finally put some visual data to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHUOhmG04M8





Shane Miller - GPLama

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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [gplama] [ In reply to ]
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I apologize for dredging this thread back up but I am struggling and need some help - although I understand things better here.

Specifically this has to do with racing on Zwift. As explained here I can expend the same energy across the Neo 2T and the Kickr but really struggle with the Neo racing on Zwift.

Is there any way to change the feel of the Neo to mimic the Kickr on Zwift?

I also find that quite a few of the better racers on Zwift are using ... Kickrs.

I am a little disheartened because I have to admit I LOVE the design of the Tacx in general. Well thought out, clean, quiet and I enjoy using it cordless.

Thoughts?
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [trisport4all] [ In reply to ]
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trisport4all wrote:
Is there any way to change the feel of the Neo to mimic the Kickr on Zwift?

- Make sure your weight is correctly configured within the Tacx Util app (when it's connected to the Neo). Rider weight does have an impact on gradient simulation/inertia/ride feel and iirc if you're connecting over BLE then Zwift won't send the rider weight to the trainer. I hope they've fixed/solved that one... but....

- If you're on an early firmware update the firmware to 0.0.36 (I think that's the latest). *Do so at your own risk, etc, etc....

- If those don't change anything, switch to a Kickr.

Shane Miller - GPLama

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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [gplama] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry to clarify and THANKS for even responding - that's hugely appreciated. I should use bluetooth to connect - set weight. Do I need to keep the app open on my phone while I race on Zwift?

I wonder how it would feel if I set my weight heavier.

Again thank you very much as this at least gives me somewhere to start because I want to love the Neo.
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [trisport4all] [ In reply to ]
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Once the weight is set with the Tacx Util app and assuming the other software doesn't override it, you're good. Even if your software overrides it, it'll also be correct. The issue will be if you're a good distance either side of the default 75kg (or 70?) and it isn't being set.

Here's something I did back in 2018 testing different rider weight settings on the same virtual gradient and cadence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edJI8A8SMso

Shane Miller - GPLama

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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [gplama] [ In reply to ]
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68kg

Definitely interesting - ill have to play with the settings in the game to see if playing with my weights has a change in that inertia feeling to match closer to the kickr.

Your videos are as always super informative. Thank you again.
Last edited by: trisport4all: Oct 3, 20 19:51
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [trisport4all] [ In reply to ]
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trisport4all wrote:
I also find that quite a few of the better racers on Zwift are using ... Kickrs.

Why does this matter? The pros are sponsored.

Then there are people like DC who are not but prefer the Neo
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [gplama] [ In reply to ]
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Now a few years since this thread was started - by this point do you think that there is a smart trainer that rivals the Lemond Revolution for “feel”? If not, what do you reckon comes closest?
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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duncan wrote:
Now a few years since this thread was started - by this point do you think that there is a smart trainer that rivals the Lemond Revolution for “feel”?


IMO there's still nothing like it. It's like riding with a tailwind on smooth road... with a new chain.... on a sunny day. There's something about it being 'non digital' that appeals to me.

duncan wrote:
If not, what do you reckon comes closest?


The Stages Bike SB20 with the huge cheese-wheel flywheel is close... but still no LeMond. And it's bolted onto an immovable object (the SB20 is a TANK!).

At the end of the day most of the top end trainers are now much of a muchness. They're quiet, interactive, compatible, (mostly) accurate, and provide exactly what they're designed to do. People will debate Kickr vs Neo all day long trying to justify their choices. There's no correct answer on that one. The ride feel of the Kickr feels like it has a little more 'kick over' in a larger gear, but the NEO2T feels like it has closed the gap there with the updated magnet layout/brake strength.

Shane Miller - GPLama

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Last edited by: gplama: Oct 4, 20 16:07
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Re: NEO VS KICKR power feel difference... [gplama] [ In reply to ]
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gplama wrote:
It's like riding with a tailwind on smooth road... with a new chain.... on a sunny day. There's something about it being 'non digital' that appeals to me.

Agreed to all of that – why I've been on my Revolution every winter for the last seven years, noise notwithstanding.* Losing out on these aspects still gives me an impediment to investing in a smart trainer...

*That and the fact that I can match (or sometimes even exceed) my power output on the road, so maintain a high training quality.
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