Mine hurt probably the first three or so times, then it is just relaxing. I stop getting massages in the off season and when I start back up racing again I start weekly massages. I know my roommate wanted a massage from my massause last year and said he was about to cry.

You might be a little sore the day after, but all around you should feel better.

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Reverend Dr. Jay
Lake of the Pines Triathlon fastest bike course record holder - Golden State Super Sprint fastest tri course record holder - Wildflower Long Course slowest run course record holder (4:46:32)

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"If you have a body, you are an athlete." -Bill Bowerman

"Anyone do this and feels that it works?"

I do quite a bit of this as a chiropractor as an adjunct to the traditional chiropractic "adjustment" or spinal manipulation as well as modalities such as low volt, ultrasound, laser accupuncture, etc. I hope it works, or I wouldn't have been able to stay in business for the past twenty years.

"can chondomalacia be treated with out surgery, or is this stretching and manipulation common treatment?"

Sometimes, depends how much buildup you may have behind the patella. Try everything first before considering going under the knife. Sometimes it's necessary, but surgery should be your last resort, not your first choice.

I just went through a similar issue with my illiopsoas (hip flexor) near the groin area. I developed the injury over the summer and thought it would go away during the off season. Not. The PT was really rough on me (brought tears on the second visit). But I thought hey, if it fixes it, then have at it. After 3 weeks and six treatments, my pain was actually worse. When I started, it hurt to run. After 3 wks of PT, it hurt to walk. Running out of time for next season, I decided to have it injected with Cortisone (2 wks ago). My pain was gone within hours and it still seems to be working. Maybe someone can tell me the downside of the injection.

Cerveloguy, my father is a chiropractor also (recently retired) and he also did the accupuncture, muscle stim-pack, etc thing in cooperation with the traditional adjusting.

I've had accupressure sessions where I've come off the table looking to fight (not my dad). Before I even realized what's taken place I've already given them the "You do that shit again and I'll ..." line. You don't realize it's going to hurt like that. You have this image of it being like a deep sleep, and then it feels like you've been shot by a splintery arrow.

I wonder if "they" know how bad it's going to hurt and do it anyway. Later, they're on a message board bragging to their friends, "Today I had this 6'5, 280-pounder in tears as I was kneading his calves. It was awesome, just for good measure, I stuck my thumb in his hamstring until I felt bone. I can't wait to 'help' his lower back, he'll be sucking his thumb for sure". Then there's 10 replies telling him "great job" and to "not forget to do his traps until you take his breath away".

[Like the others have said, after a few times, it does feel very good and relaxing, even though you always feel the pressure. The point is to work cellular waste products from the muscle and to increase blood flow -- bring more nutrients to the damaged area and remove waste products quicker. It does work.]

I have found that semi-hard ice massages (using water frozen in a dixie/gatorade cup) work wonders. I've used these every since college sports when things get more sore than they should.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Chondromalacia (which isn't a very accurate term anyway) should virtually never be treated with surgery - if that's what it is. There are patellar problems that can be treated surgically but the entity described as chondromalacia should not.

People are always talking about "cellular waste products" when referring to deep massage, but as far as I can tell, there really isn't much evidence that massage does anything like this. Anyone know what these products are supposed to be ? - and don't try lactate, as there is quite clear literature with muscle biopsy that says that lactate doesn't hang around much over an hour after exercise no matter what you do. Don't get me wrong, I find deep massage is helpful for me personally, but the "flushing" thing sounds like one of those things that make sense but doesn't have any backup.

Deke

cerveloguy what do you think about these massage apparatus deals. I tried one out and would have to say that they can get deep without the need for another person. I am not trying to sale it I am asking your opinion because of your profession

http://www.tpmassageball.com/

I think they're fine for home use. I've recommeded such devices to patients. They're not a substitute for a session with a trained massage therapist, but they can give relief to tight muscles.

Doesn't look painfull enough. I think by the appearance I could just have my wife rollerblade across my body. She's also keen on watching one of my treatments and hopes they sell popcorn. As a next day update the thermo outside is very cold and we'll be doing a little ride later and my back doesn't feel too sore but the skin feels like it's been bruised.

marko1 you may be on to something with the rollerblade thing. I have heard of PT's/massage therapist using their elbows and heels. A friend of mine had this done, a woman literaly stood on him. The PT treating my leg right now can get me jerking all over his table right now and that is just with his hands or ultrasound, start adding some really bony appendages and more force, I don't think I could handle it. Good luck I hope your treatments work.

for the muscles you could try
1)stretching
2) heating liniments such as Tiger Balm, Olbaas, Hemp Zap.
3)dry hot packs. A sock filled with barley grain (rice, buckwheat, etc ) warmed 1-3 minutes in the microwave
4) warm stones heated in water
5) my chiro has a thing like a water bottle filled w/ clay? heated in a water bath that nearly covers the whole back.

A combination of heating liniment + hot pack + massage works best for me.

The whole "DOMS is due to Lactic Acid" thing has pretty much been squashed for over a decade, from what I know. There are some health teachers, etc that are probably still relaying this information. But, what I have seen, from even high school texts, is that muscle soreness is being attributed to microtears in muscular tissue. The presence of lactic acid equates for the "burn" felt when exercising, but not for DOMS. DOMS is due to micro tears in the muscle fibers.

I would asy that deep tissue madssage has more to do with getting blood into the area to spur on the repair and growth of muscle fibers. The old damaged part of the fiber has to go somewhere, right? You don't tear down a house and build a new one on top of the torn down parts.

I don't have medical studies in my shirt pocket that validate this, but from my years of college athletics, college studies (professional biology), and years involved in lifting weights and studying hypertrophy, it's almost like common sense. I'm not saying that with a derogitory tone, I was under the impression that it was basically a given.

When you exercise you break down muscle, when you eat and rest you build the muscle fibers larger (i.e. stronger) than before. The damaged parts of the muscle fibers and by products of energy cycles need to be "flushed" or removed from the area for faster nutrient inflow (or whatever fancy term in being used this week). This is the explanantion for why active rest is better for recovery than "couch time" ... with the couch, there's not increased blood flow (increased waste removal, increased rate of nutrients coming in).

Are you asking if there is medical studies that say their are cellular waste products from exercise? Or muscle fiber damage? I'm pretty sure that has been known for decades, although I have never specifically looked or research the cullarl effects of deep tissue massage.To what effect deep tissue massage has been studied (medically) in this regard, I do not know. If it's interesting to you, you could search around for it on pubmed or similar site.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

>Are you asking if there is medical studies that say their are
>cellular waste products from exercise? Or muscle fiber
>damage?

I think he was asking something along the lines of,
"People are always talking about "cellular waste products" when referring to deep massage, but as far as I can tell, there really isn't much evidence that massage does anything like this. Anyone know what these products are supposed to be ?"

From my own experience, massage is great, but massage therapists are given to babbling nonsense about "toxins" and other such crap. To hear some of them, it's a wonder the roughly 6 billion people who do NOT get a massage on any given day aren't dropping dead from toxic shock. Everything a good massage therapists does with massage should be respected and enjoyed. Everything a massage therapist says *about* massage should either be ignored or taken with a grain of salt. (For that matter, everything *I* say should either be ignored or taken with a grain of salt as well.)

"To hear some of them...."

I think this has been the case with chiropractic, massage, accupuncture, herbs and even sometimes conventional medicine in which the observational effectiveness of the therapy precedes the scientific explanation. The ultimate "proof" is the double blind large sample studies but these would likely never be done in the first case if there was not first a lot of testimonial evidence of a therapies effectiveness. Until something is examined in detail and a scientific reason is given the practitionors will sometimes have their own theories that are not necessarily based upon current scientific thinking. This is why traditional accupuncture for example talked about "balancing the body's ying and yang" before modern science came upon with an explanation.

 
Yes, well said. The effectiveness of a therapy is independent of a practitioner's theory as to why and/or how the therapy is effective. Double-blind is the gold standard for testing the former. The latter is fertile ground for bullshit. And, of course, double-blind testing that speaks to the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of a treatment has nothing to say regarding explanatory theories.

>The ultimate "proof" is the double blind large sample studies
>but these would likely never be done in the first case if there
>was not first a lot of testimonial evidence of a therapies
>effectiveness.

True enough for many treatments, but not, I think, for some areas of drug testing, in which predictive theories, not testimonials, are the basis for investing in studies.

Anyway, I haven't had a good massage in a while. I must be loaded with toxins. And my energies are all out of balance. I'm beginning to suspect I might also be a little bit cranky! But that's probably just my late-onset rickets acting up.