what was the rest interval for 6x5?

thanks!

2.5 min (every once in awhile, 5 min between #5 and #6, depending on how toasted I was).

Yup, in Hickson's classic study it is indicated that they asked the subjects to keep going after week 10, but most refused, and nobody went beyond a few more weeks (which I guess makes my 18 wk some sort of record <g>).

Since I/we are narcissistically discussing my own personal training, let me add this: although I once again started following my BiModal^tm plan at the start of this year, this time 'round I began a little "soft." As a result, I only cracked for the first time yesterday, but even that was largely due to poor nutritional habits (I.e., too busy to eat lunch on Tuesday and Wednesday). To make up for only making it through three intervals yesterday, I did all six today. :)

Heart rate for SS, based on your 180ish TT value, would be around 160-165. A good indicator of SS is a pace where you can barely hold a conversation. They are hard but not devastating workouts.

Hello Andrew Coggan and All,

Is a device like the Moxy Monitor useful for adjusting bicycle training loads by monitoring SmO2 values? (in a non laboratory 'garage' trainer setting)

https://www.moxymonitor.com/

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/...e-oxygen-sensor.html

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

I have heard Friel quoted as saying that you could double the duration you can hold a power level in a race situation. Probably depends a lot on your individual psychology.

I was curious about the power/ duration curve and ended up browsing some of the 100 mile TT forums. A lot of those guys claim 90% FTP is a good target for a 100 mile TT - Around 4 hours I assume. One guy claimed you can maintain 100% FTP for 4 hours, I don't think he understands the concept of FTP...

Of course I would think most of the long course TT'ers have a 'flatter' power curve (IE. TT'er) than average and also train specifically for holding a high power for long periods.

At least in healthy individuals, delivery of O2 via muscle blood flow is very tightly linked to muscle O2 demand - so tightly, in fact, that it is still not entirely clear which limits the rate of increase in muscle O2 uptake at the onset of exercise (or when intensity varies). Given this, you would expect that muscle oxygenation would mostly reflect recruitment, and in fact it has been shown that NIRS data and EMG data track each very closely during cycling exercise.

As an example of this, consider the workout that I did this morning, which consisted of 6 x 5 min intervals @ 90-95% of estimated VO2max. As you can see in the upper chart, muscle O2 content (in volume %) was higher in my left quad at lower power outputs, but lower at higher power outputs. I pedal asymmetrically, however, so once you take this fact (and the lag in changes in muscle O2 content in response to changes in power) into consideration, i.e., by plotting muscle O2 content for each leg against the GPR of that leg, the difference between my two legs almost completely disappears (bottom chart).

Moxy can be used to adjust overall daily load (but not in TSS) based on your current recovery.

I use my warm-up to check how recovered my system is. If you have 2 devices, you can place one on involved muscle eg RF or VL to monitor your muscle recruitment, you can also place one on not involved muscle eg. Deltoid to check your systemic reactions. After a while you will be able to analyze trends and quickly see how big of a dent last night hard cardio session did to your legs and overall system.

If used properly it can really maximize the efficiency of sessions: recovery length between intervals, working on weakest link not the strongest link etc…

How does it different from power meter? Power meter measure performance, NIRS displays physical changes happening in real time. Riding 300W in 10C in dry environment, will affect your body differently from riding 300w in 30C humid weather. Looking at power you will say: I was going 300W and not much more, when looking at Smo2/tHb you will be able to see how change in weather affects eg. your Oxygen–hemoglobin dissociation curve.

Let’s say you set your trainer at 75% of FTP and cycle for 10 min next you change the position from bars to drops for another 10 min, next you go off the saddle for 10 min. when you look at the power meter data graph you will not be able to say when you did what, it will be flat line for 15min at 200W. After looking at smo2/tHb you will be able to see how your body responds to those changes, depending on your strengths and weaknesses the graph may look different from my graph.

I recently went back to train on my TT bike, my FTP power is different on TT and road bike. When I ride eg. 230W it feels harder on TT bike, by looking at power I do not see why it feels harder, when I look at the smo2/thb I clearly see my position limits my diaphragm breathing and I’m desaturating much lower making it harder.

Since this is still fairly new technology, there is no cook book for mases yet, it is used for customized personalized training and it is quite effective in identifying weaknesses and strengths.
I guess once someone with proper skill set decides to create “cool book” that is easily understood by average athlete, which is not that easy, this will be the next big thing.

Hello sebo2000, Andrew Coggan and All,

Andrew thanks for the post and charts ..... I wrote a long reply to your post .... edited my post ...... and decided that it was mostly a long list of questions ...... and that I should spend more time on my own learning about the SmO2 devices ...... before I wasted your time with my uninformed basic questions.

Well maybe a few uninformed questions ..... On the Entire Workout (top chart) ... why does the O2 required ...... decrease over time for the same effort?

On the O2 vs GPR chart of asymmetric legs ...... if the Gross Power Released is constant (How is GPR different than Watts ... if it is different?) .... why does the O2 required ...... decrease over time for the same effort?

Since NIRS (SmO2 ) and electromyography (EMG) data track closely would it be possible to have a very small EMG muscle implant similar to a RFID chip that could be read from a small mobile device .... eliminating the need to wear a bulky NIRS device?

And sebo2000 thanks for your reply .... that helps to see how real time SmO2 data and graphing has actionable uses ..... now I need to learn more about it.

As you suggest ("this will be the next big thing") ..... it might be analogous to how we would take our pulse by putting our finger on our wrist and time the heart beats .... and then along came wrist and chest mounted mobile heart rate monitors with real time read outs and data harvesting .... and actionable endurance training using heart rate data ...... followed later by power meters ...... with perceived effort and fatigue reflected in power meter real time data useful for endurance training.

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

1. Muscle (tissue, really, since anything underlying the sensor at least potentially contributes to the signal) O2 content reflects that balance between O2 delivery and O2 utilization. In addition to shifting demand across different muscle groups/legs, the tendency for SmO2 to not decrease as much during the later efforts could have been due to increased blood flow. Alternatively, it is possible that my pedaling became less asymmetrical over time (will look back to see if that is true).

2. GPR = gross power released, which is exactly what it sounds like, i.e., the gross (not net) power released by each leg. It is greater than the net power released to the extent that power is (or isn't) absorbed during part of the pedal cycle.

3. Several companies are already marketing clothing with EMG electrodes woven into them. Comparatively speaking, though, I find the NIRS sensors to be less intrusive, as shorts like these: http://www.myontec.com/products/mbody/ simply aren't very stretchy/comfortable.

I'm currently reading Keith Livingstone's book documenting Lydiard run training (hint: it's not long slow distance before anyone writes it off immediately). For anyone yet to come across his methods, he predated most of the physiological science we now have but through a combination of old running lore, trial & error and intuition arrived at a very powerful approach to endurance running which must have crossover to endurance cycling.

During a base/build-up period he would demand 99% sub-threshold work with few alactic (sub 10-second) v. fast running strides to keep neuro system primed. And this was the same for middle distance runners or marathon runners (any running with a significant aerobic component). Whilst I can see Andy's UniModal approach has similar aerobic base building idea, Lydiard demanded variety within that consistency to "stimulate the different layers of the aerobic energy systems". My slightly simplified interpretation* of his schedule for an elite runner training 7 days per week: alternate days of 1hr Z3, 90-120mins Z2 plus one long hilly run 2hr-2hr30mins in Z2. The alactic/stride work was thrown into one of the 1hr Z3 sessions I believe (Fartlek style) i.e. 99% under threshold for a period of 8 to 12 weeks.

His runners could typically handle 10-12 hours of aerobic training per week without breaking down (incidentally this is where the occasionally quoted 100 mile+ week marathon training volume comes from based on elite average speeds in Z2/3 training). To make this more relevant to cycling presumably you would need to double durations up at least.

From my own (middle-aged, non-elite) experience I saw major physiological gains emphasising long endurance in a base phase as I built up for my first marathon last year. However, I started attempting a Horwill style plan (sub-threshold similar to above but with two over threshold interval sessions per week) without doing a full 8-12 week base and my body broke down before I could really use it to full effect. In the Lydiard approach, you have to let your body "earn" the right to do over threshold work by building a monster aerobic base to make you strong enough for the later interval work. If I could ever get rid of my injury and run again I will be following a Lydiard style approach for sure. Meanwhile, I'm starting to think about how I apply the principles to my bike training. I'd be very interested in other people's opinions that have given this some thought already!

*support the author and buy the book if more interested - I have no relationship of any sort with author/publisher, just gratitude they documented it!

Hi Rubik, I hope I can ask you some questions about sweet spot training. because I to increase my TTE, according to WKO4's webinars around mFTP, TTE, Stamina, ...


You progressed into very long SS session durations, and also you said that some teammates did train this way and made some good gains. I seek in trying to take it too the next level and want try an approach like you did. But I don't know where to start, and finish :-).


I think I will start with 2x20 at 90%, and build this progressively...1x40, 2x25, 1x50, .... How did you progress? And how many weeks or months did you and your mates do these training? And what other workouts you do in your week? Mostly z2 endurance, or also tempo workouts? I have a CTL of 80, and my TTE is 35min with mFTP 270. What advice would you give me?

Not too much. It's 3x30-minute or 2x45-minute for me at 87-88% FTP.

Not Rubik but after you resurrected this thread I decided to give this a shot and did 1 hour at 90% FTP the other day. I had just done the 20 min FTP test the previous week (258) and had a few other easy workouts and a 2 hour ride but nothing crazy to build into that 1 hour.

I don't have a huge amount of cycling training behind me (more of a runner) and am now focusing on raising my cycling fitness these next 2-3 months. Overall the 1 hour was manageable, first few minutes were rough thinking about what I was about to endure mentally but then around 10-15 minutes in I established a groove and just held that to the end and didn't do any crazy hard surge to finish it off but felt like I still had that in me and probably could have held that 90% pace for longer.

Point is I think you can likely build faster up to that 1 hour straight mark then what you proposed.

if you do 3hrs at 89%, are you sure your ftp is 100%?

I'll definitely attest to this. I've been doing trainerroad stuff all year, and generally the limit of individual sweet spot intervals is 30mins (90 mins time in zone). There are people on the trainerroad forum who feel like they need more progression to build up to 40, 60, whatever length of uninterrupted sweet spot. But the past couple of weeks I've been doing zwift racing and I'm knocking out 40-60min races averaging 92-95%, and I did 1hr45 @ 88% on a weekend race, no major buildup, just went out and did it. I think people are intimidated by the length and think they need to string together more intervals, but with the proper motivation I think anyone who is trained can go out and knock out sweet spot for 60+ mins

Yeah, I mean i'm just a dude trying to get faster and am trying new things that target what I perceive as my weaknesses (long sustained evenly paced efforts). I did a tempo burst workout the other day where I went 45 minutes where it was 9 by 4:30 @ ~85% and then 30 seconds at 105-110%. Ended up getting in 45 minutes at like 88-89% and felt like hitting 1 hour evenly paced would be doable. Knew I could at least do 45 minutes and if I started not being able to hold the pace I would tap out but it never got close to that point.

Now the question is how much did that 60' effort take out of me and will it drastically affect future training session

I that depends on age. When I was in my 30s, sure (thank you sir, May I have another!). Now that I'm in my 50s...I can't go straight to it.

Or more accurately, the ability to recover from it does. If I just go from 2x20 straight to 60+, I'll be able to do the workout. But, I'll be shelled tomorrow, and probably the next. But, if I progress from 2x20 to 1x40, 1x60, 2x45, etc, or some such....then my body adjusts to the new load more gradually and I won't have a big episode of DOMS to suffer through.

But, when I can do 1x90 SST on the TT bike, I know I'm in very solid race shape.

2x20 is a standard here for sure, but that doesn't mean its the only way to do it. 1x30, 2x20, 1x40, 2x30, 5x10, etc....


Same here - I mix it up.

I find I am a "High Responder" to Sweet Spot work. Also with a wonky lower back and on and off left knee problems, bigger higher intensity efforts, put too much torque on either my back or my knee or both. So SS is my Go-To quality type of training, pretty much year round, but especially indoors on the trainer starting about now.

I alternate the SS sessions on the trainer with hour long sessions on the rollers, working on higher RPM, and form. and keeping the HR low!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

If you have a few years under your belt and you are racing Tri, then...

Ride a lot. ~70% of FTP or so. As much as you can. Doesn't have to be a steady pace just not too hard. Don't worry about FTP or any performance metrics.

6-8 weeks before a race, go hard at least once per week and dial back on volume. Longer and shorter intervals. One thorough depletion ride (hard race simulation) 1+ week before the race; however much time it takes for a complete recovery.