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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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jcb-memphis wrote:
.... I am almost willing to go Vanquish....for really hot races.

I'm thinking of doing the same. I've had a P-09 in the past and found I was getting too hot in it. Granted, I did not have that front plug pulled out, maybe that would have helped. I currently use a Smith Podium, and that can get toasty too.
I tried on the Oakley ARO7, and the fit is odd, squeezes the very top of the head, and the magnets holding the visor on don't inspire confidence at all...
I've wondered about the Catlike Rapid Tri helmet, which is also pretty short tailed.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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jcb-memphis wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
If you're considering Specialized, why not get the LG P09? Just as fast if not faster on most with much better venting. That helmet is still a no-brainer.
And, to be honest, if the Met Wide Body Drone were sold here I'd buy that and be done.



Jeff

Where is ‘here’?

https://www.bikeinn.com/...BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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The P09 shouldn't even come with the plug. It's faster without it, and the best vented aero helmet out there when it's pulled. I always think this is common knowledge, but I forget how long that helmet's been out, so many folks just don't know.

Most of the top aero helmets are pretty close if your position is good. Oakley, Giro, LG, Specialized, etc., etc. With good positions, we're just not seeing large differences between them, and multiple tests will often have them switching order as far as which is fastest with the results all within the margin of error. If your position isn't good, well, that's a whole different story.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

"It's not about longer, or lower, or tilted, or not tilted. It's about getting smaller. Let the wind see as little of you as possible in the best way you can."

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
The P09 shouldn't even come with the plug. It's faster without it, and the best vented aero helmet out there when it's pulled. I always think this is common knowledge, but I forget how long that helmet's been out, so many folks just don't know.

Most of the top aero helmets are pretty close if your position is good. Oakley, Giro, LG, Specialized, etc., etc. With good positions, we're just not seeing large differences between them, and multiple tests will often have them switching order as far as which is fastest with the results all within the margin of error. If your position isn't good, well, that's a whole different story.


Super thank you.

Any of them that are US legal typically better at a large shouldered but flat backed person....properly fitted, etc. Hitting the same target if you will as the MET Drone Wide Body for shoulder coverage. We cannot buy the MET Drone WB in the USA and use it (link above appreciated and pm'd). The P-09 sure hits the mark in dollars....and suggested temp control.


jeff
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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jcb-memphis wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
The P09 shouldn't even come with the plug. It's faster without it, and the best vented aero helmet out there when it's pulled. I always think this is common knowledge, but I forget how long that helmet's been out, so many folks just don't know.

Most of the top aero helmets are pretty close if your position is good. Oakley, Giro, LG, Specialized, etc., etc. With good positions, we're just not seeing large differences between them, and multiple tests will often have them switching order as far as which is fastest with the results all within the margin of error. If your position isn't good, well, that's a whole different story.


Super thank you.

Any of them that are US legal typically better at a large shouldered but flat backed person....properly fitted, etc. Hitting the same target if you will as the MET Drone Wide Body for shoulder coverage. We cannot buy the MET Drone WB in the USA and use it (link above appreciated and pm'd). The P-09 sure hits the mark in dollars....and suggested temp control.


jeff

Anyone know if the MET drone legal for US triathlons?
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [RBR] [ In reply to ]
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Except for competitions with exceptions (Kona...), no.

I contacted MET and they said no.....



They have CE (world save US), not the US approvals.

Sort of too bad for us...it was a fast helmet if you kept in position for broad shoulders...wish other vendors focused on the broad shoulders too (and were fast)....not sure if the aerohead is but given the suggestions here it probably is actually faster than the MET anyway.

My plan is to train in the head with a terribly hot helmet. Get acclimated...and then see what happens.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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jcb-memphis wrote:
Except for competitions with exceptions (Kona...), no.

I contacted MET and they said no.....



They have CE (world save US), not the US approvals.

Sort of too bad for us...it was a fast helmet if you kept in position for broad shoulders...wish other vendors focused on the broad shoulders too (and were fast)....not sure if the aerohead is but given the suggestions here it probably is actually faster than the MET anyway.

My plan is to train in the head with a terribly hot helmet. Get acclimated...and then see what happens.



Update:


Have the following helmets and have tested them on the same bike with the same clothing with the same wind conditions just going downhill in the same hand position. Head down but not turtled. Exact same hand position on the bards. Fingers too...same position.
All data based on 2 descents, gps speed via wahoo bolt.

The V is my "terminal velocity" - it is not a very steep hill, a roller if you will. Temp was 92F. Humidity 100%. Wind under 2mph. Brutal in the sun. Start at the top of the hill is exactly at 21.0mph in a steady state. This is the best I can afford to do.

Ballista: 28.9, 29.2 "cool, quiet, very light" Oakley evzeros.

Giro Aerohead Mips: 30.1, 31.0 "hot and moist, quiet, heavy" Visor

Giro Vanquish 29.5, 30.5 "cool, quiet, neutral weight" Visor

Kask Bambino Pro 29.9, 30.6 "hot and moist, quiet, very light" Visor

Specialized S works TT 32.5, 33.1 "medium, very loud, very light" Oakley evzeros (no plan to use the visors)



Conclusions:

N of 1 data. My shape is not your shape. One person. Trying to be fast and "the same" but who knows....if a few mm up or down on the saddle nose...


I am moving to a mostly two helmet plan for tt's: Super hot race and training: Vanquish with visor. Racing (if it matters): The S-works TT. Acclimation training, the S-works so at least 1-2x a week with it. For me, my position, and my needs, this is the best set of options. For a triathlete the S-works is not trivial to get on/off, but with practice it can be done quickly. For me, the lightness and sans visor coolness trump the hastle. And I have big ears. Went with light colors on the Vanquish (white) and S-works (silver). Probably does not matter, but overheating for me has been an issue in the the aerohead mips in black.

I had the P-09 in the past and the post-recall ones got fat.

I was really surprised the S-works, an older design, was just so much faster at least for me. I have broad shoulders and a flat back and have had a racing license for a long time.....my focus is TTs. Perhaps there is not a lot left to gain since 2012....the s-works people certainly did a great job. McClaren too.

I was also surprised that if I had my head up, most of the helmets slow you the same/ a little but the aerohead seems to just kill your speed. Did not measure this well, but if your position is not head down now, the aerohead might be a really bad choice for some based on this N of 1.

The Ballista looks a lot nicer than the vanquish, so I plan to keep it for social events like team rids and hill training in groups. It and the evade are much nicer looking for road racing. The Vanquish is growing on me.

The Bambino is the nicest in quality followed by the vanquish. The S-works is a little rough around the edges, literally. And it is newest in terms of ownership.

The aerohead is too heavy and hot for my liking...if they lowered the weight and got more air into it....maybe. The Scott at the TdF that was camouflaged at the TTT was perhaps this kind of option.

The noise of the S-works is like a disk wheel's noise...it makes you feel faster maybe too. At least how it makes me feel. Good luck.

I have no conflicts to report. Just an old bike racer with a day job.
Last edited by: jcb-memphis: Aug 9, 18 6:33
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting, the fatter p09 might actually be good for you given the broader shoulders, kinda like the MET. Any chance you have a pic of your position?
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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You’ve gone to a lot of effort there. May I suggest a more reliable test approach? If you have files for those runs from a Garmin or similar you can do this with that data:

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...g_Protocol_P3536905/

Developing aero, fit and other fun stuff at Red is Faster
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [ In reply to ]
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Just came here to comment on helmet size and some of the older comments on frontal area. You have to consider the head position so that if you're low and turtling there is a component of area that disapears. When A is gone Cd is what's left and that is driven by pressure drag. Think of it as an IR heat map, where high pressure is red and low pressure is blue. Your ultimate goal is try to minimize total pressure differential so you should start by addressing the brightest red areas (high pressure, smoothen transitions) and deepest blue ones (low pressure, fill gaps or manage flow). I think this image makes it easy to understand how helmets can easily test differently for everyone and a larger helmet can indeed be more aero.

____________________________________
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is up to you.
Last edited by: Runorama: Aug 10, 18 4:28
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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Curious how you like the Giro Vanquish? I've been eyeing one up for the season and found a couple reviews, but curious if they are as good as they look? Thanks!

Go where you feel most alive. |TriHub
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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jcb-memphis wrote:
Have the following helmets and have tested them on the same bike with the same clothing with the same wind conditions just going downhill in the same hand position. Head down but not turtled. Exact same hand position on the bards. Fingers too...same position.
All data based on 2 descents, gps speed via wahoo bolt.

The V is my "terminal velocity" - it is not a very steep hill, a roller if you will. Temp was 92F. Humidity 100%. Wind under 2mph. Brutal in the sun. Start at the top of the hill is exactly at 21.0mph in a steady state. This is the best I can afford to do.

Ballista: 28.9, 29.2 "cool, quiet, very light" Oakley evzeros.
Giro Aerohead Mips: 30.1, 31.0 "hot and moist, quiet, heavy" Visor
Giro Vanquish 29.5, 30.5 "cool, quiet, neutral weight" Visor
Kask Bambino Pro 29.9, 30.6 "hot and moist, quiet, very light" Visor
Specialized S works TT 32.5, 33.1 "medium, very loud, very light" Oakley evzeros (no plan to use the visors)

Sorry, but even a light wind will mess up your data big time. There is no way the SWorks is 3mph faster in reality.

If you don't have a PM and want to stick with this protocol, I'd suggest picking 2 helmets you like the best, and do at least 8 runs with each, alternating the helmets each time. That isn't necessarily going to be enough for you to conclude anything, but you can probably tell if the protocol is viable for a reasonable time investment.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [jcb-memphis] [ In reply to ]
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jcb-memphis wrote:
gps speed via wahoo bolt.

GPS is only accurate to within 5 to 10 meters (16 to 33 feet) under normal conditions - nowhere as accurate as using a manually entered wheel circumference value that was carefully measured from a wheel roll-out. GPS accuracy is even worst on a slope.
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Re: Fastest Aero Helmets? [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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RichardL wrote:
jcb-memphis wrote:
gps speed via wahoo bolt.


GPS is only accurate to within 5 to 10 meters (16 to 33 feet) under normal conditions - nowhere as accurate as using a manually entered wheel circumference value that was carefully measured from a wheel roll-out. GPS accuracy is even worst on a slope.

You're correct that wheel odometry is far more accurate. But that GPS position error isn't randomly distributed, so the error in velocity can be much less than you might think. For example if you start in position 1 that is 10m to the left of the "real position" then cycle 100m, the error is likely to still be around 10m to the left, so the error in distance/time might be pretty small relative to absolute position error. It's not 10m in some totally different direction (assuming a clear view of the sky - once there's multipath all bets are off).
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