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What are the Limits of Civil Discourse?
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Upon Rosa Parks' death, all of the adulation and historical perspective got me to thinking.

We can look back upon her defiance in the face of oppression, and view her fairly universally as a hero and a symbol for righteous protest. I don't know if this is a polite acceptance of the winning argument, or a generational shift. Either way, there is a generally accepted right side and wrong side and most people consider it progress.

The question is, at the time of the civil rights movement, this wasn't the case. Both sides thought they were right, and at the time it was a heated debate framed not only in moral terms but also in political terms. Without getting too inflammatory, there was obviously a "conservative" side and a "liberal" side. Evidently the liberal side won.

But the question is, at what point does any argument segue from a political discussion, which tends to frame both sides as equally legitimate, to a fundamental moral question, where one side is right and one side is wrong? Is it only the passing of time? Is it just having history written by the winners? Is it the act of persuasion?

Put another way - do we countenance unacceptable arguments in the hopes of maintaining a civil dialogue, even when the argument doesn't deserve to be dignified in that way? One example - doesn't it strike people as slightly ridiculous that as a country we think its worthwhile to parse the definition of "torture"? Obviously in many arguments both sides try to take the moral high ground, but its often murky at best. Maybe it's just me, but its inconceivable how somebody could construct an argument whereby slavery had some "moral" basis. But many did. Is there a point where we can draw a principled line that can be universally agreed upon and then apply it in a careful, but nuanced way? I'm not trying to oversimplify the complex - I can let politicians do that, but at least recognize all nuances while at the same time recognizing the moral component in arguments towards which we can point our compass.

Obviously this can be abused. Everybody wants to claim the high ground, or worse yet, Godliness, on his side, so I'm not so naive as to suggest that it wouldn't just make things worse. And political discourse in this day and age has terribly uncivil, so I'm not sure my query makes things better.

I'm just fascinated that Parks can be recognized as a hero today, but then as an apostate, Communist, rabble-rouser, etc. Can only time create that lense for us?


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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [trio_jeepy] [ In reply to ]
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"Can only time create that lense for us? "

I think yes. I like to think that we are evolving. What was once commonplace is now unthinkable. Take a look at acceptable punishments for criminal behavior over time as an example.

There is also an undeniable element of the victors writing the history. As an example here, think the goals of the communists. That theory did not pass the test of time and was trashed accordingly. If it had succeeded, as theorized, not the attempted implementation of the Soviets, people would wonder how it could have faced any opposition.
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [Tri N OC] [ In reply to ]
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The problem with the victors writing it is that it removes most elements of moral suasion from the story. We can say that the communism was wrong, but I think it's difficult to make that argument from a purely moral basis. I think it was a failure not because communism is irretrievably flawed as much as the fact that the Soviet implementation was a totalitarian political regime. Socialism, as the cousin to communism, seems in its contemporary incarnation appears to work reasonably well in the Scandinavian states and parts of Northern Europe.

That's not to say that it's without some obvious flaws, not to mention obvious nods to capitalism. But I think that is the challenge - to evaluate them as economic/political systems, which inherently don't have a great moral quotient to them. It's the implementation that's a bitch. The same can be said for capitalism, which is far from perfect. As they say, the devil is in the details.

But again, I think its probably a misappropriation of morality to apply it to general economic systems. Implementations, well that's another thing.


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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
Last edited by: trio_jeepy: Nov 8, 05 16:28
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [trio_jeepy] [ In reply to ]
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at what point does any argument segue from a political discussion, which tends to frame both sides as equally legitimate, to a fundamental moral question, where one side is right and one side is wrong? Is it only the passing of time? Is it just having history written by the winners? Is it the act of persuasion?

I think the political questions you're talking about are already fundamentally about morality, no? You are not, I take it, talking about merely administative matters, right?

The thing is this, I think- if one views morality as relative, generally, there's no way to claim that these changes are due to anything other than a change of opinion, whether that change results from the passage of time, or it's just a change written into history by the victors, or even a change that came about by persuasion (or coercion).

Let's say, for example, that the majority view in here about torture is actually the small minority view among the US population, and let's further say that the US decides to adopt a policy of torture. Over the next couple of generations, torture becomes normalized in the minds of Americans. Do you think that would make it moral? Or would it only mean that most American's would have failed to recognize the immorality of it?

Same thing with respect to racism, by the way- simply because a majority of American's at one time felt it was acceptable does not make it so, right?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [trio_jeepy] [ In reply to ]
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We can say that the communism was wrong, but I think it's difficult to make that argument from a purely moral basis. I think it was a failure not because communism is irretrievably flawed as much as the fact that the Soviet implementation was a totalitarian political regime.

Interesting point of view. If communism had worked, would it still be wrong? Is there any reason to think that it could be implemented in any other form than the totalitarian? For that matter, is there any reason to think that totalitarianism can't work? If it can, is it wrong?

Or since slavery works, why is it immoral?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Last edited by: vitus979: Nov 8, 05 18:23
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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I'll take the easy one first.

I think you have to differentiate between communism which is an economic system, and totalitarian rule, which is a political one.

Now granted, political and economic considerations are often intertwined, as mercantilism shows. But in a theoretical framework, they are separate issues.

You can have socialist democracies, but obviously the democratic process has to support continued socialist policies or at least some sort of social contract between government and the people which assumes as much. The more interesting question is whether you could have a generally capitalistic society while being totalitarian. Maybe China will show us.


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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [trio_jeepy] [ In reply to ]
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I think you have to differentiate between communism which is an economic system, and totalitarian rule, which is a political one.

True, but it doesn't answer the question. If communism worked, would it be wrong? If totalitarianism works, is it wrong?

Or to use my example of slavery- it works. Is it wrong?

The point here, I think, is not to determine whether or not a political or an economic system works- it's to determine on what basis we decide their morality. Right?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Communism "working" would mean that it could bring relative prosperity to the people, no?

Slavery "working" would mean prosperity for the slave owners at the expense of total subjugation of the slaves.



I think you have pretty different definitions of "working", and it's kind of an apples and oranges comparison.

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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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Communism "working" would mean that it could bring relative prosperity to the people, no?

Yes, but the same could be said of slavery.

Slavery "working" would mean prosperity for the slave owners at the expense of total subjugation of the slaves.

Yes, but the same could be said of communism, in a fashion. See?

I think you have pretty different definitions of "working",

OK. Define "working."








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, but the same could be said of slavery.

Wrong - it isn't bringing prosperity to the slaves

Yes, but the same could be said of communism, in a fashion. See?

Wrong - not in the pure form

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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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The political side of these matters is used to distract from the larger moral questions. It's what allows people to say "I don't think this is right, but that's what the rules say". It is the attempt to duck responsibility with technicalities.

To make this relevant to today, my fellow Texans voted 74% to 26% to amend the Texas Constitution to ban gay marriage. This happened not because of morality, but because of politics. Now, this is something because it's the politicizing of morality (the creation of moral demons to tap into old prejudices to get votes), but it is politics all the same.

The politics will change, but the underlying moral questions will not. In time this will be something that we see as a huge embarrassment, because the politics of it will die and the moral propriety of freedom for all will come to the top.

So all battles for rights are moral in nature; the "freedom" side and the "anti-freedom" side. I like to say that the freedom side wins more times than not, even though it all goes in cycles.
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, but the same could be said of slavery.

Wrong - it isn't bringing prosperity to the slaves


In the first place, you didn't say anything about bringing prosperity to everyone. You said something about relative prosperity to the people. And slavery has done that.

In the second place, I don't think you can categorically say that it never brings prosperity to the slaves. I seem to think that some slaves have enjoyed a relatively (relative to their previous situation, and/or relative to the situation of many others of their day) prosperous, comfortable situation.

Yes, but the same could be said of communism, in a fashion. See?

Wrong - not in the pure form


It's "pure form" being what, exactly? I can envision no situation in which the results of the efforts of some are not taken and given to others. Which, I think, is a form of subjugation.

Besides which, your argument begs trio-jeepy's original question- on what grounds do you say subjugating a certain portion is wrong? Because advanced people don't think it's polite? Or is there something more fundamental to it? I say there is, and must be.

Like I said, I don't want to argue the particular morality of specific forms of economics. The point is, on what basis do we say that they're moral or immoral? A utilitarian basis? I don't think that works.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Last edited by: vitus979: Nov 9, 05 1:08
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [trio_jeepy] [ In reply to ]
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do we countenance unacceptable arguments in the hopes of maintaining a civil dialogue, even when the argument doesn't deserve to be dignified in that way?

That's another interesting aspect of your post. What's the alternative? Particularly in a society that increasingly holds that there are no univeral, objective truths? Who gets to decide, in that case, what arguments don't deserve to be dignified in that way? On what basis is that decision to be made? Unpopularity, or something more substantial?










"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Particularly in a society that increasingly holds that there are no univeral, objective truths?
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You seem to hold the idea that either something is 100% settled or completely undecided.

I know it makes this self-maturbatory discussion a lot less fun, but there are 99 numbers between 0 and 100.

As far as whether or not "we countenance unacceptable arguments in the hopes of maintaining a civil dialogue", I wonder what obligation people have to have a dialogue of any sort with people they do not wish to have a dialogue with.

I do not think anyone promotes the repression of thoughts or speech, and since we all know that one is only left with the implication that all ideas deserve equal face time all the time.

Think of that old saw: The marketplace of ideas. Good ideas go up, bad ideas go down. Bad ideas aren't killed, because ideas live in people and cannot be killed, but the bar for public acceptance of ideas is raised or lowered based on the idea's success in this marketplace. Even if a society rejects an idea with venom and scorn it will survive; neo-Nazis.

But the public is well-served to have a memory as to what has come and what has succeeded.
When you look at the discriminatory nature of anti-gay-marriage legislation why not use the precedent of restricting marriage rights to blacks for no logical reason other than bigoted ignorance?
When discussing whether or not "Intellectual Design" should be in school curriculum why not use the Scopes Trial?

Every person has a voice already, and if they are good at getting their ideas out they will succeed. We need to drop every single notion of merit, because merit is only as meaningful as salesmanship.
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [adamb] [ In reply to ]
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You seem to hold the idea that either something is 100% settled or completely undecided.

You seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying. The idea that an issue is 100% settled or completely undecided is not implied in my post, I think.

My point is, if the predominant opinion is that no issue can ever be 100% decided because there is no fundamental, underlying reality to base such a decision on in the first place- if these moral positions amount to nothing more than culturally influenced opinions, one cannot claim that any opinion is beyond the moral pale.

I wonder what obligation people have to have a dialogue of any sort with people they do not wish to have a dialogue with.

Another interesting point. I suppose it depends on what trio-jeepy means by "countenance."

I do not think anyone promotes the repression of thoughts or speech, and since we all know that one is only left with the implication that all ideas deserve equal face time all the time.

I think some people do promote the repression of speech they don't find acceptable. The SLPC recently succeeded in repressing Richard Butler's freedom of speech via civil trial, by way of example. And while I myself would say that all ideas do not deserve equal face time on their own merits, I think one can only take that position if one recognizes that all ideas are not equally valid, which is something that precludes a radical relativistic view of things. And while the ideas might not actually merit equal consideration, the people who propound them necessarily enjoy the right to do so. And they will.

Every person has a voice already, and if they are good at getting their ideas out they will succeed. We need to drop every single notion of merit, because merit is only as meaningful as salesmanship.

And here's where we part ways completely. This seems to mean that if an idea has the benefit of a convincing salesman, it not only will succeed, it should succeed, even if it's a bad idea. Surely you're not saying that only good ideas are found to be convincing.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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... if these moral positions amount to nothing more than culturally influenced opinions, one cannot claim that any opinion is beyond the moral pale.
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"Nothing more"? Your attempt to dismiss cultural influence on morality is ridiculous. Culture is everything when it comes to moral standards. There, quite simply, is no such concept of a universal moral code. No one person and no one group has ever had such a thing.

This "well if you don't accept Jesus into your heart it's all anarchy" business is the intellectual conceit of the emotionalist Christian trying to shortcut his way past logic and to a pre-determined goal.


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The SLPC recently succeeded in repressing Richard Butler's freedom of speech via civil trial, by way of example.
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Richard Butler died last year. I think that has more to do with him not talking anymore than anything the SLPC ever did.


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And while I myself would say that all ideas do not deserve equal face time on their own merits, I think one can only take that position if one recognizes that all ideas are not equally valid, which is something that precludes a radical relativistic view of things.
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By what standard is such a stance "radical"? That's how every single human society ever has worked.

You walk down the street and see a bum on the corner screaming about Armageddon. Being a nice person you sit and listen to him for a bit and find he's a nutcase. Would the demands of "civil discourse" obligate you to stop and listen to him every single time you pass his corner?


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And while the ideas might not actually merit equal consideration, the people who propound them necessarily enjoy the right to do so. And they will.
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Absolutely. People have the right to free speech. People do not have the right to a receptive or even respectful audience.


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Surely you're not saying that only good ideas are found to be convincing.
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That's the exact opposite of what I was saying, which is pretty clear if you see me say "We need to drop every single notion of merit".
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [adamb] [ In reply to ]
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Your attempt to dismiss cultural influence on morality is ridiculous.

If that's what I had tried to do, maybe it would be ridiculous. But it isn't. I'm not saying that culture doesn't influence the perceptions of people about morality. I'm saying that something is either moral or it isn't, regardless of how a particular culture perceives the issue.

There, quite simply, is no such concept of a universal moral code.

Then it's all a matter of opinion, and nothing can be considered beyond the moral pale. Racism was not wrong in 1900 because most people accepted it. It's wrong now because most people don't. It might not be wrong in 2100.

Richard Butler died last year. I think that has more to do with him not talking anymore than anything the SLPC ever did.

Yes, thanks for the bio tidbit.

That's how every single human society ever has worked.

No, it most certainly is not. Moral relativism is a fairly new concept, I think. Certainly, every single human society's view of what's moral and immoral has been influenced by cultural factors. But not many of them have held that morality itself is relative.

Surely you're not saying that only good ideas are found to be convincing. ----

That's the exact opposite of what I was saying, which is pretty clear if you see me say "We need to drop every single notion of merit".


I admit that it isn't at all clear to me what you're trying to say. Maybe you can rephrase for me.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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I'm saying that something is either moral or it isn't, regardless of how a particular culture perceives the issue.
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I think the problem here is a semantic one. You are using "moral" in a way that is impossible; which is to say that there is a singular "moral" code out there like a written law that people either choose to follow or ignore.


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Then it's all a matter of opinion, and nothing can be considered beyond the moral pale. Racism was not wrong in 1900 because most people accepted it. It's wrong now because most people don't. It might not be wrong in 2100.
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Do you see how your first sentence conflicts with your second two? In the first you say "nothing can be considered beyond the moral pale". Then in your second two you set lines of absolute consideration: "not wrong in 1900", "It's wrong now".

How can something be considered "not wrong" if there is no such thing as "wrong" to begin with?

What you're doing here is yet another trick of the lazy Christian moralist; you're time-shifting. Let me break it down for you:
Your first sentence is from the framework of right now. Your second is from the framework of 1900. The third and fourth also from the framework of right now.

But it is not about that, it is not about this time-shifting. If you were to be sent bodily to 1900 would you suddenly think racism was not wrong because the majority of others thought it? Further, do you not think you would not find anti-racism peers in 1900?

Of course not (on both counts), because the whims of right and wrong are not nearly as fanciful as you would so desperately hope to make them seem.

The conflict you see is merely between what is right and what is practical. In 1900 it was impractical to be anti-racism. It is not today. It might be in 2100. that does not change whether or not racism is right or wrong.


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No, it most certainly is not. Moral relativism is a fairly new concept, I think. Certainly, every single human society's view of what's moral and immoral has been influenced by cultural factors. But not many of them have held that morality itself is relative.
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And here we are, the Christian concept of a Utopian past before the godless liberal Communists came and ruined everything like the snake in their garden of Eden. Hilarious.

Can you tell me of this perfect society; where inequality, injustice and disrespect did not exist? Tell me, brother, tell me of its glories.

This "moral relativism" is as old as human thought.


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I admit that it isn't at all clear to me what you're trying to say. Maybe you can rephrase for me.
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Ideas survive based on how useful people find them.
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [adamb] [ In reply to ]
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You are using "moral" in a way that is impossible; which is to say that there is a singular "moral" code out there like a written law that people either choose to follow or ignore.

No, I'm using "moral" to say that there are objective moral realities, and that they can be discovered, and people either recognize them or they do not.

Do you see how your first sentence conflicts with your second two? In the first you say "nothing can be considered beyond the moral pale". Then in your second two you set lines of absolute consideration: "not wrong in 1900", "It's wrong now".

Sigh. What I'm saying is that if it's all a matter of opinion, you cannot say that racism was wrong in 1900. In 1900, the mass of opinion was that racism was acceptable. Was it, or did the people in 1900 fail to recognize the immorality of racism?

If you were to be sent bodily to 1900 would you suddenly think racism was not wrong because the majority of others thought it? Further, do you not think you would not find anti-racism peers in 1900?

What does it matter either way? I'm not following you- no doubt because I'm a lazy, tricky Christian moralist.

because the whims of right and wrong are not nearly as fanciful as you would so desperately hope to make them seem.

See, I really must have lost you. You seem to be making my very point.

And here we are, the Christian concept of a Utopian past before the godless liberal Communists came and ruined everything like the snake in their garden of Eden. Hilarious.

Can you tell me of this perfect society; where inequality, injustice and disrespect did not exist? Tell me, brother, tell me of its glories.


I did not say that there was ever a Utopian past, or a perfect society in which injustice did not exist. I said that most societies have not held to a belief in moral relativism. If you cannot see the difference, or simply enjoy putting words in my mouth, maybe you'd be best served to have the discussion by your lonesome.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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What does it matter either way? I'm not following you- no doubt because I'm a lazy, tricky Christian moralist.
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You are being sarcastic, but you're right.
You have an us/them view of the world, you're indoctrinated. You see yourself as holding true to the ultimate authority and all others rejecting it as if it is a conscious choice.

What you fail to see is that I am saying that there is a fairly constant moral code that runs from the beginning of humanity to today. You fail to see that because you do not understand that if it is wrapped in anything other than Bible paper.

There are reasons that humanity has this shared moral code.

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I said that most societies have not held to a belief in moral relativism.
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And I say you are completely and totally wrong because everyone is a moral relativist who picks and chooses what parts of their moral code, even if they pretend to have a constant one, they emphasize and follow.

We have a perfect example in the other thread; the moral weight of pursuing family justice by outlawing divorce is outweighed by popular sentiment. Replace "outlawing divorce" with "outlawing homosexual marriage", the moral weight of pursuing family justice comes to the top because popular sentiment allows it.
That is the very definition of "moral relativism". The morality is relative to the culture.
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [adamb] [ In reply to ]
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You have an us/them view of the world, you're indoctrinated.

OK. I fail to see the relevence.

You see yourself as holding true to the ultimate authority and all others rejecting it as if it is a conscious choice.

No. Again, you're either misunderstanding what I've said, or you're putting words in my mouth because you feel all righteous about confronting religious bigotry. I didn't say anything about rejecting anything by a conscious decision.

What you fail to see is that I am saying that there is a fairly constant moral code that runs from the beginning of humanity to today. You fail to see that because you do not understand that if it is wrapped in anything other than Bible paper.

No, I fail to see it because your attempts to say it have been so muddled that I don't think they were intelligible. And I haven't mentioned the Bible, or even religion.

That is the very definition of "moral relativism". The morality is relative to the culture.

I think you need to actually learn what moral relativism means, adam. It does not mean simply that different cultures have different ideas of what's moral and what's immoral.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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I think you need to actually learn what moral relativism means, adam. It does not mean simply that different cultures have different ideas of what's moral and what's immoral.
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I'm well aware of what moral relativism is, it is the belief that there is no true, ultimate moral code, only a more fluid collection of accepted moral strictures.

Now, Christians are moral relativists, only they include the Bible in those cultural moral strictures, it is not the ultimate guide, it is merely a strong influence when balancing all else.

This is something Biblical literalists and fundamentalists understand, which is why they attempt to live the way they do. The rest of the faithful just pay lip service and do whatever is practically best for them anyway, usually back-filling with rationalizations that conform to their supposed Biblical allegiance.

At some point you are either going to have to participate in the discussion or stop, this whole thing of avoiding uncomfortable topics by calling me stupid will only last so long.
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [adamb] [ In reply to ]
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Now, Christians are moral relativists, only they include the Bible in those cultural moral strictures, it is not the ultimate guide, it is merely a strong influence when balancing all else.


Just when you post a credible definition of moral relativism, you go and demonstrate your true ignorance of the concept.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: What are the Limits of Civil Discourse? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Can you make an actual counter-argument or are you just continuing your silly, childish tactics of name-calling and avoidance?
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