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Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave
The article you posted a link to seems to be arguing that if some women want equality in one vocation , that being the military, then in that writer's opinion all women ought to be forced to compete against men in all areas of life and sports.... I may have misunderstood the writer's intent, but that is my takeaway.

By linking to this article, it appears that you support his opinion... Hence, the questioning of your beliefs of how your daughters and granddaughters ought to be treated wrt equality.

Simply posting the link without a comment leaves your opinions open to interpretation...

h2ofun wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
That is evidence of what?

I've two daughters. Till puberty they're likely to be able to go head to head with boys but at about 11 it's game over, they'll be physically slower, weaker, have a higher body fat percentage and will, for the purposes of competition, be different

Why would you think for one second it makes sense to mix them

You are one of the loudest individuals banging on about how you do for your age relative to your peers. Why would you deny your daughters and grand daughters the same privalege

I just love when a few try to say I said something I did not.

As usual, cannot have a discussion on all sides of an issues with some wanting to make it personal.

Oh well.
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Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [sixt3] [ In reply to ]
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sixt3 wrote:
Dave
The article you posted a link to seems to be arguing that if some women want equality in one vocation , that being the military, then in that writer's opinion all women ought to be forced to compete against men in all areas of life and sports.... I may have misunderstood the writer's intent, but that is my takeaway.

By linking to this article, it appears that you support his opinion... Hence, the questioning of your beliefs of how your daughters and granddaughters ought to be treated wrt equality.

Simply posting the link without a comment leaves your opinions open to interpretation...

h2ofun wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
That is evidence of what?

I've two daughters. Till puberty they're likely to be able to go head to head with boys but at about 11 it's game over, they'll be physically slower, weaker, have a higher body fat percentage and will, for the purposes of competition, be different

Why would you think for one second it makes sense to mix them

You are one of the loudest individuals banging on about how you do for your age relative to your peers. Why would you deny your daughters and grand daughters the same privalege


I just love when a few try to say I said something I did not.

As usual, cannot have a discussion on all sides of an issues with some wanting to make it personal.

Oh well.

You and others, IMO, just miss the point I always try to bring up.

I watch Fox, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc. I want to hear ALL sides to an issues. It is not about what I "agree" with or not, since, IMO, all this stuff is just
folks OPINIONS, and really means nothing. I love to debate. I love discuss. I love to look at all sides of things without emotion. But so so few folks can do this,
let alone do this would accusing the other of what their "position" on a topic is.

I believe in todays world you have to talk about what being 'female" vs "male" is. Seems to me you cannot ignore what the government is forcing upon society.
Is it not legal that a "male" can play on a high school "female" team because they identify as "female?

All I think any of us want is things to be "fair". Problem is, life is not fair. I have NO idea the solution, never have suggested one. I just tell my kids be the best you can
be, life is way to short to get all worked up on most of this stuff.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:

I think that part of the problem here is that the only way that this can be definitively solved is to have a hard line XX or XY but I also recognise that for many of the individuals concerned, and the concerned of the physicians, scientists and others involved that they may see this as being far more nuanced than a hard line in the sand would suggest

It is nuanced. But the rules of sport should not be. That's the conflict.
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Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [sixt3] [ In reply to ]
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sixt3 wrote:

Simply posting the link without a comment leaves your opinions open to interpretation...

But it also let's you play silly little passive / aggressive games where you get to say "What? I didn't say that (even though I really did)....I'm just trying to 'discuss' it."

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave
Perhaps I am guilty of missing your point, and I apologize for my earliest post to you - I just could not figure out what you were intending to say:)

This last post was a kind attempt to show you how your post of the article link came across , to me at least... No intention of disrespect there.

WRT to you enjoying debate and discussion, perhaps more structure in your comments so that your point is made clearly.
Without that ...well.....your comments are left wide open for interpretation...and if folks interpret in a similar way...well....logically don't you think that it then must be the way it was written?

Peacefully, :)



h2ofun wrote:
sixt3 wrote:
Dave
The article you posted a link to seems to be arguing that if some women want equality in one vocation , that being the military, then in that writer's opinion all women ought to be forced to compete against men in all areas of life and sports.... I may have misunderstood the writer's intent, but that is my takeaway.

By linking to this article, it appears that you support his opinion... Hence, the questioning of your beliefs of how your daughters and granddaughters ought to be treated wrt equality.

Simply posting the link without a comment leaves your opinions open to interpretation...

h2ofun wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
That is evidence of what?

I've two daughters. Till puberty they're likely to be able to go head to head with boys but at about 11 it's game over, they'll be physically slower, weaker, have a higher body fat percentage and will, for the purposes of competition, be different

Why would you think for one second it makes sense to mix them

You are one of the loudest individuals banging on about how you do for your age relative to your peers. Why would you deny your daughters and grand daughters the same privalege


I just love when a few try to say I said something I did not.

As usual, cannot have a discussion on all sides of an issues with some wanting to make it personal.

Oh well.

You and others, IMO, just miss the point I always try to bring up.

I watch Fox, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc. I want to hear ALL sides to an issues. It is not about what I "agree" with or not, since, IMO, all this stuff is just
folks OPINIONS, and really means nothing. I love to debate. I love discuss. I love to look at all sides of things without emotion. But so so few folks can do this,
let alone do this would accusing the other of what their "position" on a topic is.

I believe in todays world you have to talk about what being 'female" vs "male" is. Seems to me you cannot ignore what the government is forcing upon society.
Is it not legal that a "male" can play on a high school "female" team because they identify as "female?

All I think any of us want is things to be "fair". Problem is, life is not fair. I have NO idea the solution, never have suggested one. I just tell my kids be the best you can
be, life is way to short to get all worked up on most of this stuff.
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Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [Power13] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Power13 wrote:
sixt3 wrote:

Simply posting the link without a comment leaves your opinions open to interpretation...

But it also let's you play silly little passive / aggressive games where you get to say "What? I didn't say that (even though I really did)....I'm just trying to 'discuss' it."

Was this directed to me ?? Or Dave?
I hope that I can learn, as well as share, by participating here, and apologize if I have not been a good neighbour :)
Quote Reply
Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [sixt3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sixt3 wrote:
Dave
Perhaps I am guilty of missing your point, and I apologize for my earliest post to you - I just could not figure out what you were intending to say:)

This last post was a kind attempt to show you how your post of the article link came across , to me at least... No intention of disrespect there.

WRT to you enjoying debate and discussion, perhaps more structure in your comments so that your point is made clearly.
Without that ...well.....your comments are left wide open for interpretation...and if folks interpret in a similar way...well....logically don't you think that it then must be the way it was written?

Peacefully, :)



h2ofun wrote:
sixt3 wrote:
Dave
The article you posted a link to seems to be arguing that if some women want equality in one vocation , that being the military, then in that writer's opinion all women ought to be forced to compete against men in all areas of life and sports.... I may have misunderstood the writer's intent, but that is my takeaway.

By linking to this article, it appears that you support his opinion... Hence, the questioning of your beliefs of how your daughters and granddaughters ought to be treated wrt equality.

Simply posting the link without a comment leaves your opinions open to interpretation...

h2ofun wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
That is evidence of what?

I've two daughters. Till puberty they're likely to be able to go head to head with boys but at about 11 it's game over, they'll be physically slower, weaker, have a higher body fat percentage and will, for the purposes of competition, be different

Why would you think for one second it makes sense to mix them

You are one of the loudest individuals banging on about how you do for your age relative to your peers. Why would you deny your daughters and grand daughters the same privalege


I just love when a few try to say I said something I did not.

As usual, cannot have a discussion on all sides of an issues with some wanting to make it personal.

Oh well.


You and others, IMO, just miss the point I always try to bring up.

I watch Fox, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc. I want to hear ALL sides to an issues. It is not about what I "agree" with or not, since, IMO, all this stuff is just
folks OPINIONS, and really means nothing. I love to debate. I love discuss. I love to look at all sides of things without emotion. But so so few folks can do this,
let alone do this would accusing the other of what their "position" on a topic is.

I believe in todays world you have to talk about what being 'female" vs "male" is. Seems to me you cannot ignore what the government is forcing upon society.
Is it not legal that a "male" can play on a high school "female" team because they identify as "female?

All I think any of us want is things to be "fair". Problem is, life is not fair. I have NO idea the solution, never have suggested one. I just tell my kids be the best you can
be, life is way to short to get all worked up on most of this stuff.

I have learned a long time ago on social media, let alone ST, that no matter how you write something, some will ALWAYS take it half empty.

Something I have been taught, and need to do a better job using in my life, is seek to understand, before trying to be understood. But, it took me lot of year to
get to this point. This is why I just ignore the bullies, since engaging in the mud with them only make two muddy folks. :)

I do think this is an interesting topic. Just too bad we cannot seem to be able to discuss all sides of it, thoughts about it, respect each persons ideas,
and keep an open mind. Oh well, I just pick the jewels out of the mud. And there are lots of great folks on this forum with great ideas. I am learning
new stuff all the time.

I posted the link to the article to just provide another persons thoughts. Never said I agreed, or disagreed, which does not matter. Every persons opinion
has the right to be respected. Or do we now have "safe places" on ST? :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [sixt3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sixt3 wrote:
Power13 wrote:
sixt3 wrote:

Simply posting the link without a comment leaves your opinions open to interpretation...

But it also let's you play silly little passive / aggressive games where you get to say "What? I didn't say that (even though I really did)....I'm just trying to 'discuss' it."

Was this directed to me ?? Or Dave?
I hope that I can learn, as well as share, by participating here, and apologize if I have not been a good neighbour :)

No, not directed towards you.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
I think that part of the problem here is that the only way that this can be definitively solved is to have a hard line XX or XY but I also recognise that for many of the individuals concerned, and the concerned of the physicians, scientists and others involved that they may see this as being far more nuanced than a hard line in the sand would suggest


It is nuanced. But the rules of sport should not be. That's the conflict.

This issue is very "nuanced" mainly b/c no one wants to hurt anyone's "feelings". If we draw the hard line in the sand, the very, very few affected women/men will be hurt to some degree, but they will get over it. You just can't please all the people in every aspect of every subject all the time. I don't mean to seem overly hard-ass but basic biology texts across the decades have cited the XX vs XY chromosome as the distinguishing feature between female and male. Let's just use this very basic fact and straighten the situation out. As you said, the rules of sport should not be "nuanced".


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
monty wrote:
Ok Dave, I have no idea what you just said. I just asked, did you say women should just compete with men if they want to be equal, pretty simple question, but apparently needs a very complicated answer..

Since that is not what I said, I gave you my thoughts, which yep, is not easy to understand, since this issue has NO easy answer

Your hard to understand because you lack the ability to write (and think?) coherently in English. Also because you just try to be contrary to everyone. You 'make a point' and then backtrack and claim it was just a question, even though it was clearly interpreted as your opinion.
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Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [SallyShortyPnts] [ In reply to ]
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Thread from 2016 , new CAS decision re: Castor Semenya and others. 1500 metres uncertain, rules don't apply to the 5 k.https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/apr/30/caster-semenya-runners-discrimination-case?CMP=share_btn_link[/url]
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Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
SallyShortyPnts wrote:
monty wrote:
This ruling was deemed discriminatory because men's endogenous testosterone was not also tested//

I don't think you are understanding the whole picture here Sally.



The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) ruling is what I was quoting. In other words, it's their opinion, not mine. CAS gave IAAF until July of 2017 to figure this thing out.

I am postulating that if a female-specific endogenous testosterone level goes back into place again, with exogenous hormone use to modulate it, then it will logically follow that male-specific levels must be enforced as well. We'll see...and I anticipate that this ruling will have broad ramifications across the athletic spectrum, as a beginning and not as an end.


I like the idea of having testosterone ("T") levels regulated, with supplementation legal to either go up or down where you should be. I've read about numerous guys/girls having their T levels tested but, AFAIK, my T levels have never been tested. Maybe I'm way low and can really get faster with some legal T. I like this idea. :)

It's not 1:1, but how'd that work out for the UCI when they arbitrarily set a max hematocrit at 50?

You had folks naturally low able to dope to the gills, and folks screwed who had a natural hematocrit near the limit already.

Yes, they couldn't directly measure EPO yet and used it as a proxy. But still, it essentially threw gasoline onto the doping fire.
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Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [rosegarden] [ In reply to ]
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rosegarden wrote:
Thread from 2016 , new CAS decision re: Castor Semenya and others. 1500 metres uncertain, rules don't apply to the 5 k.https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/apr/30/caster-semenya-runners-discrimination-case?CMP=share_btn_link[/url]

FIFY

https://www.theguardian.com/...-discrimination-case

DFL > DNF > DNS
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Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Nevermind
Last edited by: davejustdave: May 2, 19 9:54
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Re: Is it time to revisit the issue of testosterone for men and women in athletics? [SallyShortyPnts] [ In reply to ]
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SallyShortyPnts wrote:
With Caster Semenya's dominance in the Olympic 800 meter run and Dutee Chand's appearance in the 100 meters, this is now a problem that is supposed to be adjudicated in 2017. I also have my woman's intuition about Katie Ledeckie's hairline that suspiciously looked more like my Father's than mine. In all three cases, it is clear that these women were born this way, leaving nothing as of now, that has to be "fixed".

However, Dutee Chand was responsible for Caster Semenya being able to return to top form after insufficient evidence was presented that endogenous testosterone was deemed a significant performance enhancer. This, I find patently laughable and Semenya's medal appears to prove my point. With elite-level athletics always selecting for performance, without some type of intervention, will women athletes mostly be represented by intersex individuals?

The reason Dutee Chand won her case with the Court of Arbitration of Sport (CAS) is that men were not tested for upper levels of testosterone, while women were. Why not establish upper and lower limits for testosterone in both genders, X1-X10 for women and Y275-Y1075 for men? Then, if you are out of range on the low side, then exogenous testosterone brings you up to your competition The opposite, of course, would be used, as it was for Caster Semenya from 2011-2015.

What say you, Slowtwitch?


I think the obvious rebuttal to this general proposal and line of thought is that there are hundreds of factors that determine performance, many of which are congenital as well as unquantifiable, and we've selected a single one (age and birth sex aside) by which to categorize participants. The consensus among academicians in sport science is that elite athletes are born, not made. How many normalization tables are we prepared to generate in order for a competition to be considered "fair"?

Give an elite marathoner as much testosterone as you want; they're never going to be a competitive shot putter.

Edit: But I do agree that it's thought provoking and we should be prepared for similar discussions in the legislative world.

---------------------------------------------------------------

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Last edited by: domingjm: May 3, 19 14:01
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