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For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . .
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I personally think that Fukuyama's idea that history is over is quite literally insane, and I'm appalled that he has any measure of credibility whatsoever after stating it. Likewise the related ideas of people like PT Barnett (no coincidence that his name is so similar to Barnum's, I think). So I found this excerpt from Patrik Ourednik's book, "Europeana," quite amusing:

"And in 1989, an American political scientist invented a theory about the end of history, according to which history had come to and end, because modern science and new means of communication allowed people to live in prosperity, and universal prosperity was the guarantee of democracy and not the contrary as the Enlightenment philosophers and Humanists had once believed. And citizens were actually consumers and consumers were also citizens and all forms of society evolved toward liberal democracy and liberal democracy would in turn lead to the demise of all authoritarian forms of government and to political and economic freedom and equality and a new age in human history, but it would no longer be historical. But lots of people did not know the theory and continued to make history as if nothing had happened."








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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I'd have to smoke a lot of pot for that to make any sense to me.

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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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Oh, come on. It isn't that hard to understand.

I bet Tibbs understood it just fine.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Only if he was huffing his Def Leporad hair gel, suckers.

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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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That's obviously moronic.

I believe it was around the turn of the century when some big thinker said that everything that could be invented had been. This seems to be of the same school of thought.

The amazing thing is that your quote came in 1989, before the advent of the Internet. How does that fit in?


Here's the quote:

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."

-Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899


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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
Last edited by: trio_jeepy: Nov 4, 05 12:59
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [trio_jeepy] [ In reply to ]
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That's obviously moronic.

I think it exceeds the moronic and achieves madness, myself. But the idea has a rather large following, if you haven't noticed. ;)








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Well I think these guys are sniffing glue, and I think have been sitting in a room alone theorizing way too long.

It reminds me of this well-publicized incident with a reporter from 2002, when the Bushies/neocons were riding on high on the initial invasion -

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''

If that is delusional, I'm not sure what would be. I think the neocons thought they had invented a better mousetrap, and from up on high they could put it to work and the world would reach some sort of enlightenment, while they would be worshipped as gods. Apparently things haven't turned out that way. They may be history's actors, but they're acting in a contemporary version of the Chevy Chase Show, not Hamlet.


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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Art has been saying this all along but attributing it all to our policies in Iraq.

Yeah, that's part of my point. The whole neo-con philosophy, such as it is, flows out of this idea.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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"I'd have to smoke a lot of pot for that to make any sense to me."

Don't bogart that joint my friend.
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Any particular reason you think Barnett is a neo-con nut? I have read his book "The Pentagon's New Map" and am working on "A Blueprint for Action", and I can tell you he doesn't really strike me as a neo-con, or a nut, for that matter.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"The whole neo-con philosophy, such as it is, flows out of this idea."
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Fukuyama made a few speeches disowning the neocons around two years ago - probably around the time Shrub declared "victory" and "mission accomplished."

And the real "thinker," if there is one, behind neocon philosophy, is Wolfowitz's old guru at the University of Chicago, Leo Strauss (no relation to the blue jeans dude). A lot of neocons are also former Trotskyites, which explains their enthusiasm for permanent revolution in other people's countries for the sake of their American empire.
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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I get what he is saying but he is a complete idiot. This is what happens when people get keyboards and access to media. A lot like me but I am not saying that there is no history.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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Precious Roy is a god of consumer culture.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [Mookie1986] [ In reply to ]
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Any particular reason you think Barnett is a neo-con nut?

spot- Um, yeah- because he's been the "intellectual" muscle behind the idea of empire.

Fukuyama made a few speeches disowning the neocons around two years ago - probably around the time Shrub declared "victory" and "mission accomplished."

Yes, well, disavowing the consequences of one's ideas once they've run into reality is pretty easy.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Precious Roy is a god of consumer culture.
He is so crescent fresh.

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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Here is an excerpt from Fukuyama's introduction to his book, The End of History and the Last Man:"

"Both Hegel and Marx believed that the evolution of human societies was not open-ended, but would end when mankind had achieved a form of society that satisfied its deepest and most fundamental longings. Both thinkers thus posited an “end of history”: for Hegel this was the liberal state, while for Marx it was a communist society. This did not mean that the natural cycle of birth, life, and death would end, that important events would no longer happen, or that newspapers reporting them would cease to be published. It meant, rather, that there would be no further progress in the development of underlying principles and institutions, because all of the really big questions had been settled."

What Fukuyama is saying is that the "end of history," as posited by Hegel and Marx, has happened with the selection of the liberal democratic state over the communist state as the ultimate evolution of the

"...coherent development of human societies from simple tribal ones based on slavery and subsistence agriculture, through various theocracies, monarchies, and feudal aristocracies, up through modern liberal democracy and technologically driven capitalism."

He is not arguing that liberal democracy is perfect (as it is practiced), just that it does not have the insoluble problems that Marxism, Communism, or Totalitarianism have because those philosphies do not afford individual recognition to their subjects.

"According to Hegel, human beings like animals have natural needs and desires for objects outside themselves such as food, drink, shelter, and above all the preservation of their own bodies. Man differs fundamentally from the animals, however, because in addition he desires the desire of other men, that is, he wants to be “recognised.” In particular, he wants to be recognised as a human being, that is, as a being with a certain worth or dignity."

You can read the whole introduction here: http://www.marxists.org/...orks/us/fukuyama.htm

I would think you might rather like Fukuyama since he has been critical of the post-war "nation-building" effort in Iraq.
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [tri_bri2] [ In reply to ]
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What Fukuyama is saying is that the "end of history," as posited by Hegel and Marx, has happened with the selection of the liberal democratic state over the communist state

Yes, which is an idea that I can't believe is seriously entertained by any reasonable person with an ounce of historical awareness. It is one thing to say that in the ideological battle between communism and liberal democracy, liberal democracy won. It is quite another thing to accept Hegel and Marx's basic proposition that mankind is inexorably moving towards an ideal political solution that's permanent, and which, once attained, precludes regression. (Or change.)

He is not arguing that liberal democracy is perfect (as it is practiced), just that it does not have the insoluble problems that Marxism, Communism, or Totalitarianism have

I think the argument that liberal democracy is, if not perfect, ideal, is strongly inherent in his theory.

I would think you might rather like Fukuyama since he has been critical of the post-war "nation-building" effort in Iraq.

I have not heard his criticisms of the effort in Iraq, maybe I'll look them up. But I think it's completely fair to say that the idea he propounds provides a significant motivator for those who support the war. (In the same way that Marx's idea of an inevitable worker's paradise justified, for him, a worker's rebellion across the globe.)












"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. No wonder some neo-cons feel like they've been stabbed in the back. ;)

http://lists.extropy.org/...004-June/007239.html








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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hmmm

"Though I, more than most people, am associated with the idea that history's
arrow points to democracy, I have never believed that democracies can be
created anywhere and everywhere through simple political will."

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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know when Fukuyama turned into a racist defeatist. Shocking.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Just to clarify, I'm not saying that Fukuyama himself ever called for the spread of democracy by force of arms, only that it's the predictable result of people taking his theory seriously. Freedom, after all, is breaking out all over, and where it isn't yet, it only needs a little prodding at gunpoint. Freedom is never an imposition, especially since it's inevitable and wholly desirable.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Sooo....saying that the US should strive to increase the connectedness and economic development of the third world is "the intellectual muscle behind the idea of empire"? Care to provide some specifics? Have you actually read his books? Any references to pages, etc, where he talks about "empire"?

Spot

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
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Re: For the Fukuyama/PT Barnett/Neo-con nuts . . . [spot] [ In reply to ]
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saying that the US should strive to increase the connectedness and economic development of the third world is "the intellectual muscle behind the idea of empire"?

Saying that the developed world is the Functioning Core, and everyone else is the Gap, and saying that the Gap is to be integrated whether they like it or not, by military means if necessary, is providing the intellectual muscle behind the idea of empire, yes.

Care to provide some specifics? Have you actually read his books? Any references to pages, etc, where he talks about "empire"?

I confess that I have not read any of his books. I tried to procure a copy awhile back, but that cheap bastard Demerly wouldn't loan me his copy. Maybe I can borrow yours.

But I do poke around his site from time to time. (http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com ) Where I find such gems as this:

LET ME TELL YOU why military engagement with Saddam Hussein’s regime in Baghdad is not only necessary and inevitable, but good.

When the United States finally goes to war again in the Persian Gulf, it will not constitute a settling of old scores, or just an enforced disarmament of illegal weapons, or a distraction in the war on terror. Our next war in the Gulf will mark a historical tipping point—the moment when Washington takes real ownership of strategic security in the age of globalization.










"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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