Some really interesting thoughts on this thread. I had always thought that the rule of thumb was that bike "fitness" transferred to the run but not vice versa (ie a run focus would deplete bike fitness), so this thread has somewhat corrected that view.

I would fall somewhere in-between the other replies and in line with your thought process. If your bike fitness is solid and based off substantial volume, inclusive of intensity (e.g. 2 X 20 workouts) ramping running and cutting bike volume (maintaining intensity) is a good plan. Cannibalizing your run workouts with a weekly 2 X 20 is not something I believe would occur with some timing of your run mix program and the assumption that you coming down from solid bike volume/intensity.


I often gear up for a late spring marathon and cut back on my biking volume significantly, but maintain my weekly trainer intervals and some easy recovery rides. I hit all my historic markers for run fitness in preparation (about 8 weeks of work) and then start ramping back up the bike volume about 2 weeks after the marathon. Within the 3rd and 4th week I am hitting previous years markers for bike power on certain workouts and run fitness was sustained initially. One may argue that this could be due to my level of bike fitness is not maximized, but in the context of my VO2 and gains over years, it is an earned value.


I agree with Dev, that the long ride fitness/adaptation takes a little longer to come back.


Be aware that once you ramp back up the bike/swim the carry-over of the "new" run fitness will not be a 100%. This may take more than one year of a discipline specific work block to reap fully. This is not to discourage you more about expectations; if you have a substantial history in one of the disciplines and it is relatively strong, it will likely always be the most responsive and forgiving in terms of ramping up on short notice or relative maintenance over a lull. Do not get upset if you give back some of your new found run fitness when you are into a full tri program. You should have a gain, but there will likely be some regression. Accepting this as part of the overall package and not trying to replicate markers of the workouts in a run specific block while in-season tri training will be helpful.


Cheers!

Anyone else have this experience? I certainly get the fact that the 2x20 will eat into recovery time, but I've always felt that recovery from run-training is not so much my aerocib-system in general- its more of loosing any calf/muscle-soreness. I dont feel that cycling at intensity has hindered this sort of recovery as much, but I appreciate some more insight into this.

Thanks for the insight. Im thinking of sticking with my weekly 2x20 - I do them a day or two after my long run, the same day I have a short recovery-run (one of three weekly short runs in barryP). This way the short run is done as a transition-run right off the 2x20. I've been doing this for some time alteady, and like it!

For me the only reason I can see for ditching the 2x20 all together would be if ny run volume gets so high that the 2x20 interferes to much with my running. At my current volume - this is not an issue - and I dont dare to go from 30-35k pr week to 60+ in just a couple of weeks - Im guessing that sort if ramp-up should take months instead. Maybe i should considered doing the 2x20 only every second week once i pass 50-60k pr week?

I realize that running may recline when i ramp up bike again, but the goal is to get faster in total - which i hope I'll be:)

I would fall somewhere in-between the other replies and in line with your thought process. If your bike fitness is solid and based off substantial volume, inclusive of intensity (e.g. 2 X 20 workouts) ramping running and cutting bike volume (maintaining intensity) is a good plan. Cannibalizing your run workouts with a weekly 2 X 20 is not something I believe would occur with some timing of your run mix program and the assumption that you coming down from solid bike volume/intensity.


I often gear up for a late spring marathon and cut back on my biking volume significantly, but maintain my weekly trainer intervals and some easy recovery rides. I hit all my historic markers for run fitness in preparation (about 8 weeks of work) and then start ramping back up the bike volume about 2 weeks after the marathon. Within the 3rd and 4th week I am hitting previous years markers for bike power on certain workouts and run fitness was sustained initially. One may argue that this could be due to my level of bike fitness is not maximized, but in the context of my VO2 and gains over years, it is an earned value.


I agree with Dev, that the long ride fitness/adaptation takes a little longer to come back.


Be aware that once you ramp back up the bike/swim the carry-over of the "new" run fitness will not be a 100%. This may take more than one year of a discipline specific work block to reap fully. This is not to discourage you more about expectations; if you have a substantial history in one of the disciplines and it is relatively strong, it will likely always be the most responsive and forgiving in terms of ramping up on short notice or relative maintenance over a lull. Do not get upset if you give back some of your new found run fitness when you are into a full tri program. You should have a gain, but there will likely be some regression. Accepting this as part of the overall package and not trying to replicate markers of the workouts in a run specific block while in-season tri training will be helpful.


Cheers!

I say you ditch the 2x20 min entirely.

Here is why. You will be on a run focus. You need to mentally shift your brain to run focus and forget about losing bike fitness. You only have so much mental horsepower to spread between work, family and training. 2x20 min just distracts from the overall mental focus units you have to apply across life. Don't underestimate how much mental energy all this training takes. It's not just all physical, you need all the mental horsepower to focus on the run focus, so that when you arrive to key run training sessions, you are mentally fresh to deal with that training in addition to physically fresh.

One of the biggest challenges to age group triathlon success is arriving at the daily start line of training ready to perform, having moved life out of the way for that block of time. This takes mental energy. As soon as training is done, the next challenge of the age grouper is to shut off the athlete brain and turn on the "everyday man" brain and have physical and mental energy to perform in day to day life. We can't be depleted from training and non perform in day to day life. Why? Because if we are impaired and slow in getting everything else done, we lose support, and we are slower at everything we do, which means the chance of showing up for the next workout ready to roll becomes lower.

In the training logs that I get to see for the athletes in my group, the guys who hit their workouts are mentally together. They get EVERYTHING done, not just workouts. In the world of fighter pilots or sales guys, they are "closers". If you are going to do a run focus, then do the run focus. 2x20 min is just a distraction and you'll be watering down the run focus. The cycling fitness will come back fast.

While I get the example, I do not want to be like Thomas Hellriegel, and therefore don't share his goals/philosophy. I doubt the OP or myself is so burned out over the winter and mentally I personally like the trainer and do not feel that a session of intervals once or biweekly detracts all that much from a run focused block; for me. There could be a mental component in there as well as I feel that I am reducing bike loss; ymmv. Maybe since this is his first first go-round with a run specific build, he should do your way, but at the end of the day I think we are picking the fly shit out of the pepper. He sounds to me to have a solid thought process and can always reduce a variety of the metrics of any bike training he is doing as he ramps up; including at some point exclusively running e.g. last 4 weeks of the block.

To the OP; what you are suggesting is exactly what I do over winter intervals; a easy recovery run as a brick or later that day. The next day is usually a normal run or even a long run, but I hold off on tempo or speed work for another day.

Cheers!

I totally get the idea that once I do a run block - I should do it properly and not just 90%-ish in fear of loosing bike-fitness. This is my number one priority - to get my running to a level as high as possible without any hickups, injuries etc. Given that i currently "only" run 35 (will be close to 40) kilometers pr week - I feel that I still have pretty much free training-time. 35-40k running is about 3.5 hrs pr week, which leaves me with plenty free time to spend. Following Barry P means I have 3 short runs pr week, and currently my short runs are so short I would like to get something else out of that training-day as well:)

As things sit right now, I feel that I both have the mental and physical freshness to do my weekly 2x20. I´ve read alot about 2x20´s and how taxing people feel they are. In my experience, once you get "into it" -(i.e. have sufficient bike-fitness and gotten used to the feeling of pushing for 2x20), 2x20 is not really that bad. Actually - right now I look forward to my 2x20´s! :) I am probably running them in the lower end of the spectrum (big difference from doing 2x20 @ 92-3-4% to 96-7-8", which some do!), but I have gotten into a rythm where I ride my 2x20 pretty steadily at around 285w, which feels pretty allright (guesstimating my FTP at somewhere right above 300-310w right now, so this puts me a little under 95% for 2x20). I make a point for myself not to ride them so hard that I really have to go into the darkest places of the mind to complete them, and so far this works ok:)

I totally see that once I get to a point where my run-milage is higher, I could feel that the 2x20 is more taxing (both physically and mentally!). I´m currently leaning towards keeping my 2x20 session once a week until I feel it is hard to keep up with my run-milage. Currently I feel like I need to really hold back on running, because my head would like to run more miles than I know I should, considering my historic milage :) (I guess this is how every training-probram works - eager at the start and the going gets tough somewhere down the line!). If I get to 50k-60k a week and need to drop the 2x20 I will do so (and I´ll let you know Dev so you can go "told you so":))

I also get the point of balancing training and work/family - and having 2 kids (2+4 yrs!) and a full dayjob this is the hardest part for me (finding the time I mean!). However, as long as I have a rythm where I can find the sufficient time (which for me usually means somewhere 8-10hrs/week), I kinda feel that I am overly-motivated to work out! I dont know if anyone else can relate to the feeling, but I kinda feel that my training is MY time, so once I am into my lycra I really feel energetic and wanting to get "spent", knowing that once I´m done its back to work/house-chores/kids, etc :) For me the most important life-lesson sports has tought me is to be 101% present in what your doing right now - regardless of its working, cleaning your house, hangin with the wife, of (most important ofc!) working out!

Anyone else have this experience? I certainly get the fact that the 2x20 will eat into recovery time, but I've always felt that recovery from run-training is not so much my aerocib-system in general- its more of loosing any calf/muscle-soreness. I dont feel that cycling at intensity has hindered this sort of recovery as much, but I appreciate some more insight into this.

OK, I see your points. What I would do then is keep the 2x20 for now and as you ramp mileage and intensity, maybe go down to 1x20 min then eventually just 45 min easy spin. At some point you can replace the 2x20 min cycling with 8x1K or 6x1 mile Daniels cruise intervals with 1 min easy recovery which are to be done at 60 min threshold speed, so the recovery from this is SUPPOSED to be pretty quick assuming you built up your run base. Aerobically this run workout should deliver the same or better cardio load than 2x20 min biking. But, you have gradually build up your run base and volume to handle that. The injury risk may be high if you're not accustomed to that type of running so ease in.

yup I am doing the same thing this winter - focusing on the RUN. I feel that cycling distorts your body in ways harmful to running and for postural balance (interaction of legs/back/core). I was at the bike shop discussing this and watching cyclists all hunched over putting the coals to the pedals in group rides this morning.

IMO for optimal running you need to be tall, perfectly aligned and have range in the hip flexors so you can drive energy from the legs stacked & backward - for propulsion. Kind of like swimming actually. Cycling does the exact opposite - it creates tight hip flexors and screws up postural alignment. And it doesn't do much for building the spring leg action required for running.

yup I am doing the same thing this winter - focusing on the RUN. I feel that cycling distorts your body in ways harmful to running and for postural balance (interaction of legs/back/core). I was at the bike shop discussing this and watching cyclists all hunched over putting the coals to the pedals in group rides this morning.

IMO for optimal running you need to be tall, perfectly aligned and have range in the hip flexors so you can drive energy from the legs stacked & backward - for propulsion. Kind of like swimming actually. Cycling does the exact opposite - it creates tight hip flexors and screws up postural alignment. And it doesn't do much for building the spring leg action required for running. I cycled my way right into Achilles injury on my bad ankle actually.

Love to be out on the bike so I got an EVO/Bionx electric bike, chipped it for commuting, easy spin, upright position & fast! No leg/back/core overload so I can "save" my legs for running.

Anyway start back into things after being sick I did a morning 5K fast walk today to build my posture and hip mobility. I feel that walking is better in creating range of motion (legs center-line back).

In my experience, winter bike training has never made any difference. I've had some winter where I tried to maintain some level of biking, and other where I didn't touch the bike for two months. I can't say that I've noticed any difference come April/May.