Many many thanks for the 'pinch' suggestion. I tried that in the pool yesterday, during warmup and then again at the end of the session before my cool down. I found it helpful int eh warmup as I've been working hard on the front part of my stroke where I tend to glide/dolphin as the hand enters the water, and so the pinch was great to give me a quick feedback.

Only concern I had was that I initially started to reach a bit forward to get that early pull as opposed to driving down.

You bet! Just start with what you can be succesful with. Progress is progress!

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http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

There's a balance between being patient in the front and getting into the stroke. It's not necessarily a bad thing to be more patient in the front, although you can certainly overdo it. Likewise, there are some individuals that slam into to their stroke right away.

To figure out what's best for you, keep track of stroke counts and times and that should help give you some feedback about what's working for you.

If you think the pinch paddles are causing you to be a little too patient, BUT they help you set up the stroke, just be aware of it and know that you have to be a little more aggressive driving down once you go back to regular swimming.

Andrew

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http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

i know you ad the crucial sentence bellow but lower or faster stroke counts is just one of the metrics and lower stroke count is not always better and higher not worse .

and while in the pool it is a huge win in choppy open water it could not be a win .

that does not mean i dont agree with what you say , but i think we need to be a bit careful not to over generalise too much.

This sticks out to me right away when you speak of not improving in the water. Yeah as an age group marathoner you can get pretty far on easy running miles. Not the same in the pool.

You say you are swimming 3-4 times a week. I suggest doing a balanced approach such as a format like this:
1. Long/endurance: 300-500 reps at steady/endurance pace, or neg. split each rep
2. Middle distance reps: 100-300's at best avg pace, ex. 15x100 or 5x300 @ threshold pace
3. Short reps: 25-100's at fast pace, ex. 20x50 odds fast, evens easy

Also, do you do any benchmark testing? or repeatable workouts to track progress? What's your time in the pool for a 500 or 1,000 all out?

This morning I tried a couple of "reverse" paddle 50s as part of a pull set at a masters workout. It felt really different (i.e. showed me how much I am bending my wrist) and will work up to more! I have not yet tried the "pinch" method but saw what another commenter said and am looking foward to giving that a go as well!

Cheers,
xLisa

Oh, Sweet Jesus :-0

Okay, so I need to take this advice seriously and start: a) logging and b) pushing myself. But I think it may take ma quite awhile to get close to the reps you're talking about.

I've never done any benchmark testing, and if/when I do reps they tend to be things like: 4x50 on 1.20. Period. (Oops!).

It's interesting (and heartening, in a way) to read that as an age group marathoner you can get pretty far on easy running miles. Not the same in the pool.

At the moment I mostly swim with a masters group, which is difficult because 80% of the folks there are anywhere between WAY WAY WAY better than I am to WAY better than I am, and 19% of the folks are older and worse than I am. So I have no near-peers with whom to gauge myself/push myself/pace myself. I find it less motivating than I used to when (pre-Covid) I sometimes swam with a Tri group that had several people at about the 1.50-2.00 / 100 pace so it was often just _slightly_ too hard for me, which I feel like is just what I need to improve, if that makes sense.

Anyway, in August the swim team will return to the pool I'm at now, which means I'll start swimming alone more rather than in a "competition" (i.e. freezing) temperature pool, and maybe be able to incorporate more sessions along the lines of longer repeats, and so forth.

Thank you @pirateri, for this daunting and realistic input!
xLisa

Don't worry so much about the pinch paddles. Just focus on the upside down paddles. When you've mastered them, give the pinch paddles a shot!

Andrew

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http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

Yes. I agree.

If your stroke count is improving because you are moving more water or better aligned, this is almost certainly a good thing, regardless of the context.

If your stroke count is improving because you are gliding more or kicking harder, this is not a real change. Swimming like this is typically not a good strategy for open water.

One of the values of keeping track of your numbers is that if you head down the wrong path, you can usually figure it out sooner than later, and change course.

I almost added that caveat in my initial post, but removed it to keep it simple.

Andrew

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http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

Andrew, thanks. And this is the challenge in that I can get the front working, but then I rush the last part of finishing the stroke with that push to the pockets. Or, I can get that full back end of stroke, but at the cost of adding a glide/pause at the front. Dumb discipline ;-)

The pinch paddles are good for me in that it's worse on the first half length - worse as in there is a lot of fighting with the paddle as I'm trying to push it forward into the water and it's fighting. Then I get my timing right and as it enters I'm holding it neutral in the water (relative to pool side, moving back relative to my body motion) and there's no fighting the pinched paddle.

My Coach saw me doing it this morning in the warmup - he was a bit worried that the drill would add stiffness into the stroke from the tension holding the paddle, where he's already fighting my overthinking engineers' brain in swimming and my very 'mechanical' stroke. However, for short periods and with the understanding of the potential dis-benefits he was ok.

I've got all the pace/stroke/Swolf data from Garmin. Sadly it shows some great progress a few years back and a regression more recently. Difference in the past was regularly swimming 5 times a week ( 3 squads in pool one OW and one very low distance technique focussed session) and not once or twice as of last year.

Oh, okay, great. Will do!
Best, xLisa

If you’re struggling with both components, just work on one at a time. Then switch your focus to the other component. Over time, you’ll get better at both and you’ll find you can execute both.

As others have alluded to in this thread and elsewhere, it’s going to be very difficult to improve if you’re not swimming much, regardless of what you’re doing. Even if you have the right advice and are performing the right acitivites, it takes a lot of practice.

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http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today