This is a valid question but I think the lines are fairly well delineated:

- When an athlete uses products somehow restricted by the pharmaceutical industry or intended for purposes other than specifically "athletic nutrition" (hydration, calories, electrolyte, etc.) outside their intended use, especially when specifically banned or otherwise controlled by a sport's National Governing Body (USAT in our case), that is cheating. It is in violation of specific legislation and the athlete has made a willful decision to break the rules for the specific purpose of athletic gain. That is cheating.

"Over the counter" commercially available sports supplements such as Muscle Nytro, Optygen, E-Caps, etc. are largely dietary supplements with claimed (but often not empiraclly substantiated) performance enhancing properties. Their benefits are arguable and they are not controlled by an NGB or a pharmaceutical company.

To me it is the difference between a disk wheel, which is legal, and using a motorcycle for the bike portion, which (obviously) is not legal.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

The line is definitely blurred. That is why I so appreciated the rule change this year about master men being allowed to stay within one meter on the bike for a distance not to exceed one mile after being passed by a non master woman with exceptionally proportioned legs and buns.

USAT is really getting in tune with the sport after all these years.

Personally, I think that most, if not all, over the counter supplements are basically nothing more than marketing ploys to rid you of your money. For instance, look at all the percentage improvement numbers thrown out by the Endurox/Accelarade example you provided. Do you feel your next day's performance improved by 55% or that your endurance improved by 24% since you took these products? These products are legal because they are mostly just natural or pseudo-natural food product with fancy packaging backed by unprovable supposedly scientific mumbo jumbo. The blood doping and anabolic steroid stuff is within a completely different realm. They alter you phsiologically and the results can be readily observed/verified.

This thread reminds me of something.
What about over-the-counter cold remidies like Sudafed? I have seen these popped before competitions and I am unsure about their legality, especially among the typical age-grouper?

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Steve C.

sudafed contains ephedrine or pseudoephedrine, both of which are on the IOC banned list. it's a performance enhancing drug (bronchial dilator, improved respiration/oxygenation).

AG racers might not be aware that it's illegal from a competitive standpoint to take this product prior to a race as it gives an unfair advantage to the athlete that ingests it. next time, you could tell them.

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Marty Gaal, CSCS
One Step Beyond Coaching
Triangle Open Water Swim Series | Old School Aquathon Series
Powerstroke® Freestyle Technique DVD

If I'm not too confused, the primary reason ephedrine and it's kin (ma huang, etc.) are on the banned list isn't because someone can "Sudafed" themselves to the top (it's weaker broncho dope than legal Albuterol), but because it breaks down into similar metabolites as amphetamine.

This eliminates the likelihood of somebody testing positive for amps, and saying, "Oh, I had a cold and ate a crate of Sudafed."

Same for a lot of other "banned" substances that would never make anyone go much faster than an aspirin would.

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"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."

While taking a sports nutrition (or something like that) class in college we were assigned to compile studies of all the "hot" on the market supplements and decide if the hype was fact or fiction. This was I believe somewhere around the year 1990. The only over the counter supplement at that time (tested for results by a credible 3rd party testing group) that showed a very small improvement was L Lysine. Where (boz stated) RX stuff works ie Steroids and only when done at non safe dosages. Back then and today there are supplements that have not been properly tested. So do they do what they claim ? I would say that a large majority don't, based on what I learned. Are the supplement engineers armed with more information and data today than yesterday? Yes. Are they using it? Nutrition plays a big role in our sport and we all know how important it is. There is a place for supplementation, yet it is a personal thing. What my diet is lacking yours may not. Hence supplementation can make up the difference, is it cheating? Is eating the right foods cheating? Do I know what I am missing? No and most people don't know either. It changes everyday and before and after every workout.

hinds57 rules created by the governing body of the events you race in dictate what is illegal as Tom D said. Don't fret over the supplements you are using unless it is banned by them. Rules are there to define, Pure in sports dosen't exist, if it did someone would have to define "pure" by rules. Stay within the governing bodies rules and your not cheating but you may be spending a ton of money on supplements that is ultimately just flushed down your toilet.

Let me give a less technical answer to this question...



I used to race at an "Elite" level...cheating starts when you get busted. Is it fair that in the TDF today damn near EVERYONE gets fed with an IV every day? Tell you what, I want an IV at the Bike / Run transition...It is fair that SOME teams have Doc's handing out cortizone shots like Pez in a candy store? Why is it that the hemocrit levels of most cyclists sits right at that 49% line?



Where does cheating start?

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

you might be right about the breakdown process but a couple different websites say the same basic thing as below:

http://www.botgard.ucla.edu/html/botanytextbooks/economicbotany/Ephedra/

"Ma huang stimulates the nervous system to enhance mood, reduce fatigue, and to make a person alert enough to smell their coffee in the morning. Ma huang also has the ability to increase energy and endurance; it does this through increase of blood flow to the muscles, resulting in an increase of oxygen and nutrient supply to the muscles. Ephedrine also increases basal metabolic rate (BMR), so that the body is spurred to burn calories faster, and so ephedrine is part of the thermogenic process that can result in substantial weight loss. "

so sudafed & co appear to work as stimulants in their own right. i did see a couple pages stating that sudafed doesn't aid performance as well. granted you can get prescriptions for stronger products...

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Marty Gaal, CSCS
One Step Beyond Coaching
Triangle Open Water Swim Series | Old School Aquathon Series
Powerstroke® Freestyle Technique DVD

Stewart,

I know that I am not cheating. I just found it ironic that I was reading these articles about performance enhancing drugs and getting disgusted. Than I look at something I take and read all the performance enhancing claims on the label. I had just never thought of the potential hypocrisy. When and if I ever face a dilemma I will just rely on the advice of my mother. “You know the difference between right and wrong, if you do the right thing and you can sleep well at night.”



Thanks

Dave

I agree with Boz. Most of the benefits derived from most suppliments (excluding energy drinks) can be optained through a well balanced diet, I may also be call hypocritical with this next statement, and vitamin suppliments. With all the training we do I don't think it's possible to eat enough food to supply all that we burn. As far as energy drinks aree concerned, dehydration leads to decreased performance. My personnal favorite potion is a mixture of water, gatorade and coke (the kind you drink).

I think all you guys with your bicycles and jobs and low body fat are a bunch of cheaters. So there! :p


I keep having this dream that I own a fishing boat and Tom D and Slowman are shirtless on my deck all sweaty pulling up anchors. Does this make me gay?

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Dave, I know how you feel, I sleep well at night. Seems like our mom's got it all worked out. Some people's moms got some more work to do.

yes

Where does it start? It may be as simple as this:

I was working out in a gym back in the mid 80's. Started chatting with this guy and we started talking about training. I have always been very thin/lean( started out life as a distance runner) and at the time was starting to take triathlon pretty seriously with a goal of improving my strength to help my swimming and cycling. He told me that I would be a perfect candidate for some low dosage steroids - it would allow me to build strength without much bulk. He told me that steroids were pretty easy to get a hold of. This was pre-ben Johnson days in Canada and there was all kinds of talk of steroids, what they could do and who may be using them. I told him, "No thanks" and said that I preferred to find my fitness through hard work. I never saw the guy again.

At the time it seemed pretty easy. For some it may start this way.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

(Malchow's an Olympic gold medalist and former WR holder in the 200 fly)

http://www.usswim.org/...=news&pubid=3681

"I have used supplements in my swimming career, but knowing what I know today, I wish I hadn't. I never saw any benefit from them, and I now realize that one undisclosed ingredient or accidental contamination could have ended my career in disgrace and disappointment. I have not taken any supplements in three years, and I feel as good in and out of the water as I have ever felt. "

I think the answer to this question has two parts to it.

The first is the easier one... This is the technical answer which Tom Gave.

The Second is the harder one to define. Is the personal/spiritual component. In my mind cheating also has a component of intention. I am willing to do something which would give me an unfair advantage... The presence of this intention is when you are sure you are crossing the line. You could still be cheating without intention (you break a rule, you break a rule) but with the intention the act takes on new severity...

Uhhh.... I think that there was a point in there somewhere...

How about the altitude simulator tent?

The 5th place finisher in the women's time trial at the Worlds in Hamilton (Canadian Jeansson) tested for an elevated red blood cell count. They did a test for EPO and it came up negative. She claims to use the altitude tent to sleep in all the time .... Obviously it works since she elevated her count to a level they were suspicious of. Is this cheating? I can't afford one of those gizmos and not many recreational athletes can get access to one. How is purchasing something like that any different from sticking some dianabol in your arm a few times a week? How about people that can afford a regular trip to the massage therapist to speed recovery? Is this cheating compared to taking some drugs that essentially speed up your recovery in a similar way? These are all issues that each individual would have to decide on. There are too many grey areas so I would go with cheating is doing anything that is officially designated as illegal in the sport.

Ah the dreaded supplement question... is is doping? The answer is a resounding - He!! MAYBE.

When I read the article in slowtwitch about Reid's use of Master Formula Damage Control, I decided to look up it's contents....

Guess what?... the supplement has Herbs that are very simular to drugs used for Dementia, Liver conditions and Diabetes (i.e., Vinpocetine, curcuminoids - to name a few) . Also among the list was Quercitin — a bioflavonoids that Inhibits estrogen production. It is a strong relative of the Epinephrin group.

The list of Herbal ingredients is long... and, I'm not going to say whether that makes it a bad thing to take. The key point is that some Supplements are drugs. Whether they are good or bad is relative. Whether it cheating or not is also relative. The simple reason is because the success rate of the Herbs having a significant impact is sometimes questionable... sometimes it is not questionable. Sometimes herbs produce life threating problems and sometimes they just produce very expensive waste.

However, what seems to be clear is that the intent can be determined. To improve your performance using drugs is not a smart idea and probably considered cheating (whether is defined by an organization or not). However, the real question comes when you ask the question... Is it OK to use drugs or supplement that have herbs/drugs to recover faster?

I'm not going to say... and, I'm not going to try and draw the line. It's just a question of doing what is "right and fair". Now that's a radical concept.

FWIW Joe Moya

Larry,

Like many aspects of getting ready for and being successful at endurance racing, the nutrition componant can be as complex or as simple as you want to make it. Personally, I think that many athletes training for and doing an Ironman make it way to complex. In theory, you should be able to do the whole race on Gatorade, but it does not work that way exactly and that's when the complexities start.

Some key nutition points:

1. Pre-race carbo load is key

2. Pre-race analysis and experimentation of what you need in training is key

3. As exertion levels increase, stomach functionality decreases. Nerves further compand this.

4. Improper pacing will deplete you sooner.

5. It helps significantly to have an Iron-gut if success at long distance racing is important. Many triathletes, professionals included have had to go through, mega-bonks, complete dehydration, hyponutremia, hyperthermia, massive GI distress, and numerous DNF's or finishes way below their "potential" before figuring out that long didatnce racing(Ironman) is not for them . . and that's OK.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I and my two training buddies all had the Accelerade-induced "Atomic Gut-Bomb" experience you mention. We tried it in training and each of us had severe cramping and bloating. I think I would have been OK if I would have jammed an N-G tube down my esophagus to relieve the pressure. I thought i was going to burst. We didn't take the stuff from the same can or anything, and it wasn't even on the same training rides. I tried it three different times before giving up on it....same results every time. I don't know why it kicked us like it did, but, I'm not one to argue with the rough results more than three times. I had a GI bug in my last 1/2 and had to make a 4:31 second stop in the woods (no "facilities" available anywhere on the course!), and I consider that a minor inconvenience compared to the accelerade-induced Atomic Gut-Bombs...they were that bad. The stuff appears to work well for some people, I wonder why it had such a bad result for us? Not everyone is the same, obviously. What DID seem to help me was Endurolytes. I never add salt to my food and have often be plagued by cramps...not since I found Endurolytes, though.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)