When I started working out and loosing weight I was flying by the seat of my pants. I chose to eat the least refined food I could. If it was available raw to be prepared myself I chose that over a heat and eat entree. I chose whole wheat breads and pasta, steamed veggies, brown rice. Now what I did is in a book called the South Beach Diet. It's not Atkins, it doens't promote bacon and hamburgers, it doesn't promote no carbs, but it does help one learn to choose healthy substitutes for the non healthy food we used to eat. In the crash start to loose 10 or so pounds you won't want to do a long run, but after the first short part, all food groups are re introduced, including healthy fats, protein, and complex carbs. Of course you can eat anything when you are training hard and competing. It's good to have a diet (a manner of eating, not a weight loss plan) that will work in the off season too. I don't know how much of the weight loss comes from water, but my tanita scale says I went from 24% BF to 19% BF when I lost my last 12 pounds. I would estimate by that number that 2/3 of the weight loss was actual BF.

I'd say that the champion could have done better on a reasonable diet. Sorry, anecdotal evidence is worthless. As an example, there have been racers who won the Tour de France eating steak, drinking wine, and smoking cigarettes during the race, back in the early days of the Tour. They didn't know any better. You want to use them as examples?

Ken Lehner

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----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

All I'm askin - no, I'm BEGGING YOU - can we please not turn THIS board into an Atkins forum. There are several out there already.

You offered a ½@ssed study of 30 people. That's not a study, that's ANECDOTAL. Meanwhile, in case you missed it, someone has logged on to report of KIDNEY DAMAGE caused to him personally by Atkins... HELLO?

"Elwood, I respond only because you have made up your mind and that's that and nothing is going to change your mind."
- - Not true, Sean. If you had actual EVIDENCE that a)Atkins does not cause ketosis, thus overloading the liver and kidneys, we could start there. If you could also demonstrate that b) long-term health is promoted and/or thatathletic performance is improved, then we could discuss that. Short of that, you're saying Atkins takes off pounds and I'm s;aying so does a tummy tuck or bulimia, and I won't sit quietly by while you promote those either.

Nothing personal, Sean. in fact, I like you. I just HATE the Atkins diet, for the VALID REASONS that I've enumerated previously, and for which you have no answer.

"Yet you want myself and others to believe/agree with you as well."
- - No, I'm just not going to be mute while you hand out bad advice.

"I don't agree with you,"
- - There's nothing to agree or disagree about, Sean. We're not discussing opinions like what music do you like, we're talking nutrition, and you're promoting something you don't fully understand.

"I do believe, however, that people have the right to hear different views regardless of whether people such as yourself don't like it."
- - I agree 100%, but once again, this isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of nutrition.

"You seem to keep missing the point that I eat carbs."
- - The only one missing the point here is you. I know the Atkind diet, not just phase 1.

"We've 'beaten this to death' as you say because people like you and me have opposing views on acheiving the same goal, yet you want to win."
- - See above regarding winning, opinions, etc...

"I say let people make their own informed choices. You and me have made ours."
- - Only one of us has made and INFORMED decision.

"I offer 'studies' because that's what some people need."
- - Great idea, got any? The one you referenced wasn't a study by any scientific definition.

"Studies are biased depending on who's paying for them, yet it's an accepted practice to ligitimize theories."
- - No it isn't. You may accept it, and advertisers may love doing it, but it isn't "accepted."

"My response to your 1-2 statements is that it's promoted because people believe it and because it works (yes, making money and having "suckers" helps). If it didn't work, I personally wouldn't do it and wouldn't spend another dime on it."
- - Will it still be working for you when you're having your kidney transplant?

"Elwood, I can't and won't stop promoting something that I believe in and may be a useful tool for others because you say so."
- - Don't do it because I say so. Do it because it's the right thing to do.

Enough already...

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

In the immortal words of Rodney King... "Can't we all just get along?"

Elwood, You'd like nothing better than to see the Atkins diet go away. However, If not me, someone else will continue to disagree with you. Nutrition IS up for debate regardless of what you think. You choose to accept what you believe/been taught as truth and condemn all others. The only way this will change is if people like you are able to squash opinions and beliefs like mine. That troubles me more than losing a liver or kidney.

You hate the Atkins diet and you want me to not turn this into an Atkins forum. I'm not trying to do that, but a forum is a medium for public discussion and that's exactly what this is. I've seen Atkins forums and they are love fests. Understandibly so. It's easy to talk to people who have the same ideas. It's harder let people decide for themselves.

Since you hate Atkins, no study would matter. What's the difference.

Atkins does cause ketosis ( a normal metabolic process) and that's been documented. Ketoacidosis is the life-threatening condition in which insulin-deficient subjects have out-of-control blood sugar levels and generally occur in alcoholics and people in a state of extreme starvation. If you don't believe me because I wrote it, research it yourself.

You telling me I don't understand is just...aw, this is just stupid. I thought I could discuss this with you and you say nutrition isn't up for discussion like it's cut and dry. Well, it is to you. I find this to be a great fault with you as you've found so many of my faults and let me know about them. Thanks for caring.

Sean

(I still feel the same way I did before getting told I don't know s$%t about nutrition from cousin elwood)

"Elwood, You'd like nothing better than to see the Atkins diet go away"
- - Yes, Sean, you are correct. Now let's see if you can figure out why...

You seem to think that I'm arbitrarily pissed at Dr. Atkins or at you or at the idea that people can find a shortcut to weight loss. That's incorrect. You're absorbed in sentiments about this diet, and you can't see that I'm emotionally neutral on it. My objections to it are based on hard science.

I'm beginning to think you aren't very smart. I always knew you hadn't done any research on your beloved diet, but now I see that you won't even pay attention when someone enters your Atkins thread to tell you that he/she suffered kidney damage from it, after I've been telling you for weeks that that's what Atkins does.

There is NO VALID NUTRITIONAL SCIENCE backing Atkins, just voodoo and high school chemistry. Do you want to do chemistry experiments with your own body, Sean? You have that right, but I'm just asking you to let it go and don't use this forum - which is for endurance athletes - to promote something that isn't good for endurance athletes.

I'm happy for you that you found a way to lose weight, but just because the inevitable effects of horrendously bad nutrition haven't gotten to you yet, that's a crappy reason to promote this bad idea to others.

You've told us many times how much you love the diet, and we all know your FEELINGS on the matter. But feelings aren't evidence and a study of 30 people isn't a study worth doing. Maybe the Atkins people are pimping it because any true scientific studies they've performed fail to support their thesis? Try that one on for size.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

Haystack please do not say you are stating a fact and then say "look it up". If you want to back up a fact please state your sources and documentation otherwise its just opinion. I do not understand nutriton as well as others but I sure would not do Atkins. Interesting thing is I watched Dr. Atkins on Lary King once. You know what He stated? That the diet was not for endurance athletes,marathoners,ect..So if the beloved atkins said its not for us,why is it promoted on this forum!

I've tried to avoid this thread, but damn, you're such a hoot I just can't stay away. Please explain why it is that when YOU were hyping "the blood type diet," anectdotal evidence was plenty good enough for you, but now it's not. I agree that anectdotal evidence isn't worth much, but it's just hilarious that when it agrees with the shit you're shovelling, it's all fine and dandy.

And I quote you from the "blood type" thread: I've seen much supporting ANECTODAL evidence, and that doesn't make it right. It does, however, make it worth sharing, IMHO.

So, why is it worth sharing when it serves your purpose, but it's not now?

Irony is not the art of removing wrinkles.

Thanks for the advice as to how to get my point across better. I asked and you delivered.

In your opinion, who knows the most about nutrition and why. This is a serious inquiry since I've been knocked about my lack of knowledge. Consider it a favor to a wayward soul.

As to Dr. Atkins being on Larry King, I missed that. Just to set the record straight, I don't consider Dr. Atkins to be some all-knowing deity. He was just a cardiologist helped people lose weight and took s$%t from other members of the medical community for 30+ years for doing it differently than they did until he died (hitting his head after slipping on ice, by the way. Not because of his diet).

Why did I try to offer a differing opinion to others on this forum? Because not everyone is thin, fit and trim even though they are endurance athletes, marathon runners, etc. Yes, I understand that if caloric intake<caloric expenditure one will lose weight. It's the insulin highs and lows that make people eat more and more often. I've been there and done that. I've learned a lot about Low Glycemic Index foods, metabolic processes and people's nutritional beliefs since doing this controlled carb diet. I thought I could share them with others, such as yourself, whom I enjoy conversing with.

Thanks again for the advice and information.

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Sean

Asked for documentation,you answered with a question. Troll....Good bye

Who'd recognize you?

For the twelfth time, MORON, I did not "hype" the blood type diet. You know this, but somehow you'd rather pick a fight with me over something I never said than enter the discussion with your allegedly superior nutritional knowledge, which would be welcomed if you actually had an opinion to offer...

But no, Eric has nothing to offer, he just likes to piss on other people's posts.

Got an opinion on the same subject you didn't want to touch last time, genius? What's your opinion of Atkins? You seem to have missed the fact that Atkins is what this thread is about; it's not about me.

I think it's safe to assume that you're just another troll with nothing to offer, since you've passed up so many opportunities to demonstrate any nutrional knowledge that you might actually have.

Or are you waiting until after you graduate?

And Sean's info was worth sharing, which he did weeks ago. Now he's proseletyzing. There's a difference, but they may not cover that for you this semester.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

 
easy there, big fella!
ok everybody, out of the drops, stop hammering
hands on the hoods, now
ok, gaze around at scenery
deep, cleansing breaths....

keep it civil

I've got a truckload of cornball triathlon-themed metaphors and I'm not afriad to use them

Oh you most certainly did. Go back and read that thread. Where the heck do you think I just got that quote from?

You are right that I'm not interested in arguing with you about Atkins. It would be a total waste of time. EVERY diet has good and bad points and concepts. Atkins as a lifestyle certainly has some flaws that need to be addressed. But to discard it out of hand like you have without picking it apart to separate the good from the bad to see if there is anything at all useful that could apply to athletes just shows how close-minded you are. If nothing else, the discussion of Atkins should spark interest in CKG's (cyclical ketogenic diets) which may have immense potential for endurance athletes. You can find plenty of information on CKG's on some very well respected sports nutrition web sites. CKG's aren't the same as Atkins, but many of the concepts are related. You don't have to agree with Atkins, but there is a great deal to learn from him about how the body works. The point is, you aren't interested in discussion, and you certainly aren't interested in learning anything. Why would I... why would anybody waste their time?

part of the article:

High-protein, high-fat dietary patterns, when followed over the long term, are associated with increased risk of the following conditions:

1. Colorectal cancer. Colorectal cancer is one of the most common forms of cancer and is among the leading causes of cancer-related mortality. Long-term high intake of meat, particularly red meat, is associated with significantly increased risk of colorectal cancer. The 1997 report of the World Cancer Research Fund and American Institute for Cancer Research, Food, Nutrition, and the Prevention of Cancer, reported that, based on available evidence, diets high in red meat were considered probable contributors to colorectal cancer risk. In addition, high-protein diets are typically low in dietary fiber. Fiber appears to be protective against cancer.8

2. Heart disease. Typical high-protein diets are extremely high in dietary cholesterol and saturated fat. The effect of such diets on blood cholesterol levels is a matter of ongoing research. However, such diets pose additional risks to the heart, including increased risk for heart problems immediately following a meal. Evidence indicates that meals high in saturated fat adversely affect the compliance of arteries, increasing the risk of heart attacks.9

3. Impaired kidney function. High-protein diets are associated with reduced kidney function. Over time, individuals who consume very large amounts of protein, particularly animal protein, risk permanent loss of kidney function. Harvard researchers reported recently that high-protein diets were associated with a significant decline in kidney function, based on observations in 1,624 women participating in the Nurses’ Health Study. The good news is that the damage was found only in those who already had reduced kidney function at the study’s outset. The bad news is that as many as one in four adults in the United States may already have reduced kidney function, suggesting that most people who have renal problems are unaware of that fact and do not realize that high-protein diets may put them at risk for further deterioration. The kidney-damaging effect was seen only with animal protein. Plant protein had no harmful effect.10

The American Academy of Family Physicians notes that high animal protein intake is largely responsible for the high prevalence of kidney stones in the United States and other developed countries and recommends protein restriction for the prevention of recurrent kidney stones.11

4. Osteoporosis. Very high protein intake is known to encourage urinary calcium losses and has been shown to increase risk of fracture in research studies.12,13

5. Complications of diabetes. In diabetes, kidney and heart problems are particularly common. The use of diets that may further tax the kidneys and may reduce arterial compliance is not recommended.

In people with diabetes, the safest approaches to preventing or slowing kidney problems include controlling blood glucose levels, blood pressure, and cholesterol and decreasing protein intake to low normal levels.14

While high-protein diets may carry potential health risks for anyone if maintained for more than a few weeks, they are especially risky for people with recurrent kidney stones, kidney disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, colon cancer, or heart disease.

footnotes:

8. World Cancer Research Fund/American Institute for Cancer Research. Food, Nutrition, and the Prevention of Cancer: a global perspective. World Cancer Research Fund/American Institute for Cancer Research, Washington, DC, 1997, pp. 216-51.
9. Nestel PJ, Shige H, Pomeroy S, Cehun M, Chin-Dusting J. Post-prandial remnant lipids impair arterial compliance. J Am Coll Cardiol 2001;37:1929-35.
10. Knight EL, Stampfer MJ, Hankinson SE, Spiegelman D, Curhan GC. The Impact of Protein Intake on Renal Function Decline in Women with Normal Renal Function or Mild Renal Insufficiency Ann Int Med 2003;138:460-7.
11. Goldfarb DS, Coe FL. Prevention of Recurrent Nephrolithiasis. Am Fam Physician 1999;60:2269-76.
12. Abelow BJ, Holford TR, Insogna KL. Cross-cultural association between dietary animal protein and hip fracture: a hypothesis. Calcif Tissue Int 1992;50:14-18.
13. Feskanich D, Willett WC, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA. Protein consumption and bone fractures in women. Am J Epidemiol 1996;143:472-9.
14. Gin H, Rigalleau V, Aparicio M. Lipids, protein intake, and diabetic nephropathy. Diabetes Metab 2000 Jul;26 Suppl 4:45-53.


link to page-

http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/consumer.html

All I know is I would be scared if I was eating this way and there were groups of doctors creating websites to warn the general public about it-

I passed on information about the blood type diet, and most assuredly did not "hype" it. Your silly quote (how anal must you be to save all that?) was from my response to you, attempting to help you understand THEN that we were discussing Atkins (not from the vegetarian thread where I shared three sentences on the blood type theory). Everyone else who was on that thread is aware of that, but for some reason you just want to have a go at me. When you grow up, we'll talk.

And calling me closed minded for not wanting to delve for a fourth time into Atkins with Sean (you didn't get a piece of any of those, but you want to beat your own dead horse for some reason). I'm only asking that he (who has offered not word of rebuttal to any of the negative facts offered anti-Atkins, by me and others) stop proseletyzing. We did discuss the pros and cons, you were just sleeping in class that day.

Unlike you, I prefer to discuss things once. You seem to want to discuss the fact that you won't discuss them, endlessly. If you want the last word, just post again, because I won't be responding to any more of your foolishness.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

Please do, I love corny metaphors. That could be nearly as much fun as the thread on insults, most of which were, in fact metaphors... or at least similes.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...