Kick or no/minimal kick, can you define how you are currently creating yoru speed?

take your 1:15/100s on 1:20 (I think someone else suggested that may be your send off, not sure if you did). For those 1:15s, what is your SPL and what is your stroke rate?

You can go faster by taking fewer strokes at the same tempo (which can be accomplished by adding kick OR a more powerful/more streamlined stroke & body position) OR you can go faster by taking the same strokes / same kick at a faster tempo.

If you can define these 2 aspects you can create much more specificity for your training.

others mentioned more threshold/vo2 max...the composition of your training. Many mentioned more volume...the quantity of your training.

Few would argue that optimizing winter training for cycling with componsition changes (more intensity) over volume alone can make you faster.

The same may be true for your swimming. If you can define your current swim metrics and note whether you are working on improving those during the training you currently do, you'll have many more clues for how to get faster.

I'm willing to bet you can get faster with no additional time in the pool by using SPL/Tempo training combinations the same way people can get faster on the bike in the off-season with no extra volume by using a power meter & proper interval training.

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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Steel City Endurance Coaching

Thanks - appreciate the thoughts. Fits well with my current thinking - need to do more analysis and then more work. Adding incremental volume (10 - 20 %) is realistic; doubling or tripling isn't at this stage just based on the time required and so I'll need to be clever with intensity and technique. I usually do 38-40 strokes per length (assume this is what you mean with the SPL acronym) but don't really know my tempo. I can do 100 reps on 1:30 w/out rest or get down around 1:15, take the 15s rest and still keep the 1:30 intervals. This is with minimal kick so its mostly arms and body position. I'll need to get sub 1:15 on repeatable 100s to get my 5km time under 1:05:00. Or under the hour even. Getting my 100 sprint under 1 min is a goal lurking in the shadows too. Need to pay some attention to details....

so 38-40 strokes per 50m length? and swimming 100m in 1:30 endurance pace?

Does your SPL change from the 1:30 repeat to the 1:15 on 1:30 efforts? (do you take more strokes when you swim the faster pace?)

Sample math calc:
SPL * Tempo (+ fudge factor for pushoff/turn of 4.5 seconds non stroking time) = Time/ Length
so 40 strokes/length * tempo in sec/stroke + ~4.5 sec = 45 seconds/length

tempo ~= (45 - 4.5)/40
or close to 1 sec/stroke.

If this is close, you can get a tempo trainer and begin swimming at .99sec/stroke, .98, .97 etc repeats holding 40 SPL...you'll get incrementally faster.

Shouldn't take too much imagination to come up with creating swim sets aimed at specific intensity.

If you don't want to count strokes, use the tempo trainer and just look at your pace. Swim 1:30/100. Set the tempo at 1sec/stroke, 1.02 sec/stroke, 1.04, 1.06, 1.08, 1.10 etc and try to keep hitting 1:30. To do so you'll have to incrementally lengthen your stroke. This starts to becmoe a power based set as stroke length increases while pace stays the same.

Or work pace and SPL. Swim 1:30, 1:28, 1:26 repeats holding 40 SPL

Lots of options but first explore your current speed composition.

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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Steel City Endurance Coaching

We everybody needs to put into perspective here is PT is looking to swim a time in a 5km that would of put him 50th at the FINA World Swim Championships this past year. Now he is not looking to swim with the big boys at the 53-55 min 5k but he is looking to swim at a very elite level. The fact that you have this goal is great and I do not like bringing anybody down but the people who are swimming these type of times are in the water much more then you currently are. My words of wisdom would be to be in the water more, or drop the goal for AUS Open Water champs to Masters Worlds were distance is shorter at 3km and you may be able to hold the 12.5 pace you are looking for with the amount of training you are able to fit into your schedule

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Thanks guys, appreciate both of your advice.
Intricoach - you're right that this is a lofty goal - must admit that I hadn't thought about how it would rank at FINA level though. Moreover, as you and others here have pointed out, getting sub 1:05:00 will probably take more time than I'm prepared to give on a weekly basis. I'm taking the long view - aiming at the 2015 champs with a quali swim in late 2014 - so I have time to work on a proper program and make improvements to my stroke that will last, its more a question of time each week. Aside from the two pillars of family and work, I'm still inclined to keep time aside for a couple of bike rides a week for instance. I love cycling and will come back to triathlon sometime in the future so I dont' want to completely mothball my bike. I can run during lunch hours but biking is usually best done in the morning. Not to mention, I get bored if I just swim everyday for weeks on end. I need to mix it up. A little.

Switching the Masters for the Aussie OW's is certainly a pragmatic approach which I may end up taking. I may also see how I go at Masters 800 and 1500m if thats the case. For now, I figure I"ll give the big goal a shot until about mid-year and then re-assess. I might be over it, I might be swimming daily, I might even have a decent kick by then! There is a 3.9km OW swim in later April which will be a good test. I've always found I respond best to big, simple goals either way.

I have plenty of shorter (2-3km) ocean races in the meantime to give some short term goals & motivation. There are two here in Sydney later this month which are my current focus: the Big Swim (Palm-Whale) and the Cole Classic (Manly). I'm also lucky to train in the lanes next to a couple of great masters o/w swimmers - including the winner of the 2012 world masters 3km amongst other titles and placings. There is inspiration and good advice right on my pool deck whenever I need it.

Anyway, I'm rambling now....Thanks again!

I know, it's just not worth it for a lot of people. My 70.3 PB is 26.50 off 3 x 4km a week. I did a 70.3 in October with virtually no swim training in 10 months (post Ironman and then COVID-19) and went 3 minutes slower on the same course, same conditions. So 5 - 6 hours swim training a week gets you 2 - 3 minutes... imagine if you used that for running or riding. That said when I have been swim fit, I've sprinted up the beach and hit the bike feeling fresh. In this race I staggered out the water like a Walking Dead extra. And it took me an age to get my HR down on the bike.

So I'm back to swimming 3 times a week and will probably build that up to 5. I prefer to be swim fit, but I also understand why people may not see the worth in flogging themselves in the pool for little return.

Did you really just reply to a thread from 2013-4?

Now I want to know how the OP did so I can get some closure.

Ankle flexibility is a key. It appears that to be extraordinary in swimming you must be able to overstretch the ankles in that you can touch the floor with your toes while sitting on the floor. I do not have that, my feet are like anchors. The most important factor is genetics here (the same goes for big feet versus small feet).

It seems though that good swimmers with flexible ankles are disadvantaged in running. I run very well for example.

i did not notice that either.

You seem to know the answer. Swim more, train harder. If your goal is 5km around 60 minutes, you should actually figure out how to get faster with less kicking. I’m a lifelong swimmer, and it took a massive training load to get my 5km close to an hour. I’m talking cycles of 100k weeks, 16-20 hours of swimming with weights as well.

For comparison, I had no speed, but my 500y time was in the 5:05 range, my 1000y time was in the 10:15 range, and my 1650 hovered around 17:00. All swims basically in the 1:00-1:02 per 100y range. I had a 2 to 4 beat kick. My best open water 5km was around 1:05 (mid 1:11 per 100y/1:18 100m). A pool 5km I could easily go under an hour, as I could hold 1:05’s until the end of time. I did 1-2 beat kick in my 5km and reckon if I kicked more that the oxygen usage goes up, need to stop for fuel, water, etc.

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"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Hi all,
Thanks for the surprise reboot of this thread - an unexpected Christmas gift! Kind of like opening a time capsule, quite a bit has changed since the original post but its actually been super interesting to reread through it all. There is some really great swim training advice in here - thanks everyone who contributed.
In terms of my swimming & what’s happened since......
- I’m still a keen ocean swimmer but competitive levels have risen and fallen over the years. Currently getting back into it - last summer I could swim with the front group for my age (52) in OW but then....haven’t really swum this year due to pool closures.
- Have re-learned and agree with everyone here who suggested more volume & work was necessary to really get faster. This is kind of a fundamental truth of swimming.
- my kick has been worked on do a degree and is probably more efficient than ever - and I can rely on it more seeing as I don’t need to bike/run afterwards - but in terms of body position and overall contribution to propulsion, not much has changed. As some of you wrote, less kicking is a mostly good thing in long distance swimming.

There’s’ probably more but that’s all I can think of for now. Thanks again for all the replies & advice, there is some great expertise in this thread.