I'm not an expert on this but am a big fan of the ride of steel bikes. But doesn't it seem that a big aero down tube made of steel would be awfully heavy?

To the original question why steel? What about Ti - there are lots of aero Ti tubes getting around.?

Now my urgent question as I am about to spend dollars on a frame. Why doesn't the seat tube matter? I've been led to believe that it is very important for TT frame to have a rear wheel cut-out (the bigger the better ala Cervelo P3)??? Whats going on these days? From this does it mean the cervelo soloist will be just as good a P3? Help me please anyone as I don't want to be spending money on bits that don't matter (the frames with just aero downtube are loads cheaper).

Thanks

I know I'm not going to make any Cervelo freinds here, but seat tube cut outs provide little if any aero advantage according to Cobb's recent a&m tunnel testing.

However, the seatstays, whick stick out the widest on a frame, matter a whole lot. The P3 has aero seat stays, as does the Javalin Arcole and Santa Cruz Roadster. The Soloist and P2K do not.

My final note on seat tube cutouts (which my bike has, but more for looks) is that a downtube mounted water bottle makes the seattube more invisible to the wind, and is as aero as a Softride (according to Cobb on his msg board).

I use a downtube bottle all the time now, even for 10 milt TT's, I just empty it before the race.

Check out the Arcole and Santa Cruz roadster before buying your P3, they are both just as aero as the P3, made by American companies and cost less.



-g

"according to Cobb's recent a&m tunnel testing. "

John seems to be changing his mind about a lot of stuff recently. The front mounted aero bottle now being the best comes to mind. Unfortunately, his site is down temporarily. Gary, where did you see this info and is there anything else of interest that you have heard?

"However, the seatstays, whick stick out the widest on a frame, matter a whole lot. The P3 has aero seat stays, as does the Javalin Arcole and Santa Cruz Roadster. The Soloist and P2K do not. "

Thanks a heap. WHen you say seat stays matter a whole lot - how much? Eg rough time savings over 40k. Point is if that is the main difference between P3 and soloist for me (I use bottles as you have described) then the soloist is 30% cheaper for me - so it would want to a big difference as I could spend the other money getting a fast set of one piece aero bars.

I can't get those others I don't think but will aks my LBS - I'm not in USA.


"

seat stays = next most important aero feature, following the downtube. cant quantify it of course, but go to www.javbike.com and www.santacruzbicycles.com, take a look at those stays

-g

yes. yamaguchi offers the" aero "

http://www.yamaguchibike.com/...%20Price%20list.html

in true temper VELO tubing with an aero downtube and stays. certainly yamaguchi needs no introduction.

also, teesdale cycles offers aero steel frames with any columbus tubeset with a steel aero downtube as well as the VELO tubes from true temper

http://www.tetcycles.com/

mr teesdale has long built frames of world class quality for boutique level brands and others. most notably, he built the original steel gary fisher "procalibre's" back in the day - a bike that is Legend.

Hey thanks a lot Gary - sorry we (I) couldn't help you.

I'll drop names

Dave bunce went to the wind tunnel with the guys from Javelin to build the Arcole, from the wind tunnel - out

They used clay on different places of the old Jav Aero frame and came up with a faster bike

They widened the seatstays becuase semi - still air hits them and they needed to be much more aero (like a fork)

They tested bikes with aero stays and the stays were faster than with round stays

They tested the seat tube/cut out and found that it really did not matter much because the rear wheel drafts the seat tube, which drafts the downtube.

A bottle mounted on the downtube breaks up wind and allows the seattube to hit "softer" air, makes it look like a Softride i.e. no seat tube.

I cant give numbers, this is all the info I have

I do know that since I started TT'ing with an empty bottle my times have dropped slightly, hmmmmm



-g

gary, go here

http://www.yamaguchibike.com/html/y2k.html

that bike kicks a$$, boy. could be just what you need - if you cannot dig a yamaguchi nobody can help you.

thats it, man, steel and aero - how cool is that

right on, brutha. :)

Your weight concerns aren't necessarily true. Both Dedacci and Columbus make shaped double and triple butted tubes in steel that are quite light. In fact, some of Columbus' Ultrafoco stuff is so light and so thin that I'd hesitate to plop my 180-pound, doughnut eatin'/beer drinkin' arse on it.

By way of comparison, my 58cm Columbus Zona frame has a shaped downtube, Ultegra and DA comps and Open Pro wheels--it's roughly 19 pounds with the Syntace clip-ons installed. My old Softride--aero aluminum--never even approached sub-20.

As for being "true aero"...who cares? That's all well and good in the miniscule amount of time saved over a 56 or 112 mile course will win the day, but for the AAGer, it's of little difference. Now, a time trial would be something entirely different....

Perhaps Ves can offer some steel alternatives.

Cheers,

Scott in San Diego

Strong, Anvil, Yamaguchi, etc. have stockpiled some of the old steel aero tubing and can still fashion a bike out of it. As another poster mentioned, True Temper used to make Aero Velo tubing. They also had a similar tubeset called ZH2B, I believe. Columbus had Ego. I believe the only aero steel tubes *currently* available are Foco and they are pretty much confined to down tubes.

If you watch ebay, you'll find tons of old 80's bikes with aero steel tubing (even Huffy's!) and Dura Ace AX groups. I've only seen one set of just the aero tubes for sale recently - it was on ebay and even included aero lugs.

Good luck in your quest. Ol' school aero steel is/was very cool, especially on a 24"/700c funny bike.

P.S. - I'm emailing you a picture of an Anvil TT frame. Yes it is in fact steel, yes it is very cool, and no it is unfortunately not mine.

john. throw a link or pic of that anvil up on the board here, pardner! let's check it out.

All I've got is a .jpeg on my hard drive. I'll email you a copy.