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TI Swimming Improvement?
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Hey,

My new coach is a great believer in the Total Immersion school of thought, and has had me performing the drills associated with downhill swimming etc.

Problem is, in TT's against training partners I used to be faster than, I have started to lag behind, which is a bit irritating (competitive? Me???). Worse still, when I feel myself lagging, my natural reaction is to forget all the TI stuff and put the hammer down, reverting to the old style which will no doubt set back the learning process.

I know I have to unlearn a lot in order to relearn the new way, and that results will eventually come. Can anyone relay their TI experiences and provide me with a bit of comfort? I will eventually get faster, right? Patience is not exactly a virtue...
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [Oz Tri-Guy] [ In reply to ]
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How lucky you are. Not only can you already swîm fast, but also you have the chance to have a trainer advocating and training with TI techniques. I'm a long shot from both.

I can't do TI while training with my group, or do something else which is not convenient. And I don't have as much motivation training on my own.

Where do you live in Australia ??? (from your name I suppose that you live in Australia, right ?). I will probably be living in Australia soon as I am getting married in two weeks with an OZ girl. We're currently living in Switzerland but are thinking/planning going down under in a year or two.
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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Melbourne!!

The only place to live. Great lifestyle, heaps of tri and cycling clubs around, motorists (generally) pretty good with sharing long stretches of road (flats and hills), plenty of events and (more importantly) funky cafe's to choose from.

Where will you choose to live?
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [Oz Tri-Guy] [ In reply to ]
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Probably in Canberra first. That's where her family and friends are.

Do you know Tim and Gay Rutherford ? They are from Melbourne too.
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [Oz Tri-Guy] [ In reply to ]
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The TI debate is almost a religous issue, but I think most people will agree with the following:

Learn TI techniques if your abilities fall below a certain level. After you have reached that certain level, then you need to start looking at other areas to increase speed. It is hard to give an objective level, probably if you have a swim golf score above 80 then you need to focus on TI. If you have a score less than or equal to 70 then you certainly need to look elsewhere for improvements.

What kind of scores are you getting? What are you doing for a TT (distance, time and what length pool)?
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [Oz Tri-Guy] [ In reply to ]
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I did a TI weekend session last winter and it really helped me understand what good freestyle technique feels like. The TI course emphasized gliding with the front hand extended, rotating and stretching out to improve the glide, and keeping my head down & legs up. Those are exactly the hardest things to maintain when you're going fast, because you're more concerned with getting your arms around than with getting the most from the glide. And keeping your head down is really hard in an open water swim! So your experience is similiar to others that have re-learned to swim using TI techniques: initially you go slower when you're using good form.

Before the course, I would swim about 1600 yards and be wrecked, but I could keep up with the fast lane in our local pool. After the course, whenever I tried to emphasize technique I was slower -- I had to drop from the fast lane to the medium lane. It took several months before I got back into the fast lane. But what made it worthwhile for me was that I could go 2500 yards, and be a lot less tired, at the same speed or even a little faster.

Now that I'm swimming with a masters team and have dramatically increased my daily and weekly yardage, I can already feel myself maintaining good form even longer at even faster speeds. Once that TI form clicks, and it does take a while, it feels like you're flying through the water. Then you can try to emphasize going fast while maintaining good form by playing the swim golf game that's been mentioned in several threads: for 50 yards, add the number of seconds and the number of strokes to get your golf score. To decrease your golf score, you have to go faster while maintaining good form.

Now if I could just learn butterfly, backstroke, and breast stroke, I won't feel like such a boat anchor during workouts. :-)

Lee
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [Oz Tri-Guy] [ In reply to ]
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I have dedicated much time to implementing the TI method. It has worked for me. Yes I lost speed yet I knew my stroke was improving, I stuck to it. I wish I had a coach that taught the TI method. All I have is a book. With out a coach or someone versed in what the TI stroke should look like, I may learning something that may be different but it is working for me. TI has taken much time for me to learn but I feel that the TI time line for improvement is much shorter than what it would have been without it.

I think the TI method may be underestimated because the book I read put alot of emphasis on starting at zero and building a stroke (basically improving balance) taking up about 90% of the pages of his book yet developing propulsion (speed) once your stroke (balance) is good takes up about 10% of the book, if that much. Hence the reason most people will say TI will bring you from the back of the pack to the middle of the pack. I am now working hard on the propulsion part and it is working. I have questioned the TI method and I question it still but I am sill improving so I am sticking to it.
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [Oz Tri-Guy] [ In reply to ]
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So where are you at right now? What's your best 400M LC time?

Once you get to the middle of the pack, TI is going to work well for some people, and be horrible for others. Once you get "the basics" down, you're tweaking your stroke into something that works for your unique physiology. If you got a chance to watch the distance races from Worlds, there's a lot of stroke diversity going on there.

It could be that TI will eventually work for you. It could be that it doesn't. The best coach I ever had could take four different swimmers, tell them to swim the same stroke and race four totally different ways, and then have all four end up in the top six at state meet.
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [Oz Tri-Guy] [ In reply to ]
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I took a TI weekend course almost 2 years ago. there were about 20 in the course, and I have seen 5 or so since then. I think I'm the only one who feels they've improved.

I don't think that there's any secret-sauce to the TI stuff. It's all basic balance and position in the water, combined with the fact that it's not pitched towards sprinters. As a distance swimmer you're turnover won't be as high so the front quadrant stuff is more possible.

So why did it work for me and not others? I didn't stop with just TI. Sheila Taormina has some great articles on the limitations of TI here on slowtwitch somewhere. You'll also need to look beyond TI for much help on the catch, or a focus on propulsion.

the other TI book that includes all strokes has a bit more info on propulsion than the original freestyle "yellow" book.

At the end of the day, you should just be pleased that your coach is still looking for new methods and ideas to improve his coaching (and your swimming). TI principles will probably help you achieve more fluency and better position in the water. As with any form change, some temporary setback is normal, if it isn't temporary, go back.
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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Just to put things into context.

My last 750m TT effort in a 50m pool was timed at 13min. The set I did last night was a 100m repeat set on 1.45.

My stroke count is anywhere from mid 30's to low 40's for a 50m pool.

So I suppose this is not super quick (but I can run!!), but I am hoping that with the help of TI swimming I will be better able to hang in there with the fishes in the AG, draft like crazy and then match it with them on the bike and run (as opposed to playing catch-up).

Does this help?
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [Oz Tri-Guy] [ In reply to ]
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I'll lay my cards on the line: never done TI, never done a tri or an open water swim (planning to, which is why I'm here ;-)

However, I'm an ex-international level swimmer so I've a rough idea of what I'm talking about.

I swim the TI way and have done since before it was the TI way and had a golf score around 55 when I was fit. The primary benefit of TI as I see it, is that it explains in simple terms how to swim efficiently. Previously you'd need a trained coach to tell you how to do this, but now you can read the articles on Terry's web site and more or less figure it out for yourself.

However, TI isn't something where you do a camp and suddenly you're a better swimmer. It's a whole different approach to swimming, one where you place much more emphasis on technique rather than just doing the distance. Think of it as training smart. You concentrate on streamlining, thereby minimising the amount of energy you waste getting the water out of your way.

When you start this approach, you will get slower initially, as your muscles have to adapt to moving in a different pattern. Eventually, you will return to your former speed, and hopefully get faster.

Stick with it. You don't have to follow TI religiously, but you should ALWAYS be thinking of streamlining and keeping your stroke long.

Hope this helps.

PS: I'm in Canberra ;-)
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [Oz Tri-Guy] [ In reply to ]
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OZ,

When I started in this sport I had ZERO background in swimming, needless to say my first race was an eye opener! So being the typical tri-geek (type-A personality) I decided to get some help with my swimming, so I enrolled in a TI weekend class. Prior to going to the class I bought Terry's book and did all the drills to be ready for the class. Once the class started we did the drills and did a few laps on the second day, but no REAL swimming. we were told not to "swim" for a month or two just continue with the drills, so I did as I instructed. The real problem came when I decided to "swim" again, I found that I could not do more than a few 50's before I was beat. At this point I was fortunate enough to hook up with Sheila Taormina here in town for some help. After a short talk about my limited experience in swimming we got to work. She discovered that I had great balance and I rolled nice but I wasn't pulling at all. TI teaches the balance and to roll but nothing was ever talked about pulling. I had the same problem you had, I was slower than before TI. I took the class in March of 2001 and since then I've done a combination of Ti and "ST". I breath every third stroke Per TI and I still have the great balance and roll the only thing I do different is I incorporated an aggressive pull. I feel that it works good for me, last year I did IMmoo and had a 1:13 swim, this year at IMLP I had a 1:04...Oh I forgot to mentioned that I also swam three days per week. My work outs consist of 60 % swimming and 40 % drill work (TI's and ST'S).







What the mind can conceive and believe, the body will achieve.
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [WebSwim] [ In reply to ]
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Hey - good to se another Aussie on the board (makes you wonder how many there are...) When are you thinking your first race will be? Surely not the Canberra half later in the year.... Tough bike course!!

Am currently in the process of dividing my pool time between drills and swimming. Have been doing a lot of kicking of late practicing balance in the water, and seem to be able to motor along very well compared to my training partners. But when I try to bring the arms in, that is when I start to struggle relative to them. So maybe the catch and my pull needs a bit of work? Any hints???

(Am jumping the gun - am sure my coach will get to this eventually.)
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [Oz Tri-Guy] [ In reply to ]
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I'm actually a Paddy living over here now ;-) I've no plans at the moment to actually do a tri. I was going to do one of the Kurnell sprints in Sydney, but the series has been cancelled. I'm just getting off the couch after 5 years, so the tri thing is for a bit of variety in the gym and also to have a focus. We'll see how it goes.

As for your swimming, I just read Sheila's Swim Tips in the Swim Centre section of the site, and I can't put it better myself, so have a read of that. Keeping the pressure on your hand is crucial, as is accelerating your hand through the pull. Also, try and rub your thumb against your thigh as it comes out of the water. That way you know that you're pushing right through to the end of the stroke.

Once again, balance is most important. If you try to make your stroke too long, you'll sway from side to side, which is A Bad Thing (tm).

If you don't already have hand paddles, consider getting a pair. They'll strengthen up your arms, but use them VERY sparingly, as they can trash your shoulders quite easily.
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [WebSwim] [ In reply to ]
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Ta. Will check it out now. So much more intersting than work...

:-)
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [WebSwim] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Webswim,

Get ready to train a desperate non-swimmer triathlete in about a year when I come to live in Canberra.

Jokes apart, are there many TI brain-minded coaches in Canberra ?

I used to swim at the AIS 5 years ago when in Canberra for 6 months and it was amazing watching Popov and the others train under Touretski.

Makes you want to swim this fluent.
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Re: TI Swimming Improvement? [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Get ready to train a desperate non-swimmer triathlete in about a year when I come to live in Canberra.
[/reply]

I probably won't be here Diablo. I'm working on contract which is due to finish at the end of the year, then it's back to Sydney for me.

There are a couple of tri clubs down here. One of them, Tridents ([url]http://www.tridents.com.au[/url]) have a couple of Gathercoles involved on their swim team, who (and I'm guessing here) might be related to Terry Gathercole, ex-coach at AIS. I'm sure they'd be pretty TI oriented. There's also Bilby's ([url]http://bilbys.org/[/url]) who do their swim sessions at my pool.

Note that I'm not involved with either of these. I'm just doing my own thing in the gym at the moment, trying to build an aerobic base which lasts for longer than 30mins ;-)
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