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Re: Poll: predictions on what will be contradictory in the aero department [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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The fastest times were set by Mark Allen in 1993 and Luc VanLierde in 1999. I don't know what Allen rode in '93 but VanLierde was on Giant TCR in '96. Note that Dave Scott's 1986 time is about the same as Tim DeBoom in 2002.
Cerveloguy:

I don't think this is the first time you've posted the erroneous assertion that Luc Van Lierde was riding a Giant TCR at IMH in 1996. He was not, in fact. He rode a Colnago frame, which I recall some people claiming had 700c rear and 650c front wheels. I remember some heated discussion on that issue but don't remember if it was resolved definitively or not.

If you know the history of the Giant TCR it didn't exist in 1996. The fat tubed version (a dawg!) didn't come out until '97 or '98, and the revamped Burrows design came out in 1999 when ONCE started riding Giants.

I also recall Luc having a bit of trouble with his TCR at IM Hawaii in 1999. Just before the race his frame cracked at the bottom bracket. He had to have it reinforced with carbon fiber at the last minute.

I'm not trying to dis the TCR here. I own one and have loved it.
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Re: Poll: predictions on what will be contradictory in the aero department [TheChameleon] [ In reply to ]
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"Nope. I was born grumpy. "

grumpy denotes a certain humor in life. archy bunker is grumpy. your just a wet blanket.



customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
Last edited by: customerjon: Sep 3, 03 21:08
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Re: Poll: predictions on what will be contradictory in the aero department [TimeTrial.org] [ In reply to ]
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"the seat tube on my bike looks like a Softride to the wind, now that I am using a downtube mounted bottle, according to JC "

if a down tube water bottle drafts the seat post that well does the front wheel draft the down tube that well?

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Poll: predictions on what will be contradictory in the aero department [TimeTrial.org] [ In reply to ]
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In my disclaimer, I did not say that a steel fork was going to be as beneficial as a carbon one as a steel one made in the same wind-cheating profile would weigh up to seven pounds (if one were to do the Lotus-shape).

I do not think that the UCI are finished with their shrinking of the fork. I will stand on this one, and I hope I am dead wrong.

I think steel's strength and stiffness has not been fully exploited on a bicycle, yet. I think one could make a very strong, reasonably light, and pretty aero frame out of the stuff if they think well outside of the triangle. But the problem is that the UCI would not allow it.

But I can't help but think that with the old aero steel tubesets, they had some decent aero benefits. I wish someone would test some of the old aero steel tubesets, as some of them were downright skinny.

In the end, fitness and body position will make the greatest difference, then wheels, then frame.


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Re: Poll: predictions on what will be contradictory in the aero department [itchyghost] [ In reply to ]
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"the erroneous assertion that Luc Van Lierde was riding a Giant TCR at IMH in 1996."

Sorry, that was my mistake. I keep confusing his 1996 time with his 1999 time. He was actually almost 11 minutes faster in 1996.
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Re: Poll: predictions on what will be contradictory in the aero department [TheChameleon] [ In reply to ]
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No ego-trip here, but definately some very fond and vivid memories of a day that went completely and totaly to plan. Also, as others have pointed out, it is a bit odd that with all the advancements in bike frame and equipment aerodynamics, bike times have not gotten faster. Their may even be an argument that times have become slower.

We see this in marathon running as well. More runners running. More information available about proper training. Better shoes. Better clothing. However, the average finishing time at large marathons like Boston and New York have been getting slower and slower every year! Interesting.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Poll: predictions on what will be contradictory in the aero department [itchyghost] [ In reply to ]
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"which I recall some people claiming had 700c rear and 650c front wheels."

i claimed he rode dual 650c, a reader claimed he rode 700c rear and 650c front, and it was eventually demonstrated that the reader was right and i was wrong. he road 700c/650c.

i did see the bike up close, and while i'm not positive i believe the frame was steel.

and btw, in response to bunnyman's thing about steel forks, i believe the fastest fork ever tested, including hottas and lotuses and everything, was the old schwinn forks made in its ashtabula factory. very heavy, but very scant and aero.

also, dan wynn's strange looking squared-off steel forks were also quite fast as i recall. i don't think anybody's aluminum forks were as fast as either of these two steel forks.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Poll: predictions on what will be contradictory in the aero department [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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Bunnyman,
I'm right with you on the virtues of the Scott Extreme and 100K bars. I've used both on Ironman Canada's bike course several times, and as recently as last year. It's tough to bolt on the additional 500-700 grams a winged bar set-up would add. It kills me that folks can make an aluminum or carbon frame under a kilo, but yet we are still suffering with kilo-plus cockpit weights. When they finally come out with a sub-500 gram winged bar, they'll be able to charge the moon.

Any thoughts on when I should dig my old Aerolite Ti pedals out of the box? 80grams per pair. I did notice that they are not included on the Speedplay pedal history website even though they were on the market at the same time as the original Look pedals. Tinely rode these for years after they stopped producing them. A round spindle beats a dual sided pedal, eh?
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Re: Poll: predictions on what will be contradictory in the aero department [TheChameleon] [ In reply to ]
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pardon?

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Poll: predictions on what will be contradictory in the aero department [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I vaguely remember Wynn's steel forks. Gawd, I think we have seen more different types of testing over the last year or so than I ever remember back in the day when aerodynamics first became a priority.

How I would like to reiterate about the steel frames I am on about is that protocols are different than they were back "in the day". I did not pay much attention to Chet Kyle, nor did I pay much attention to much besides how to lighten my bike and what new stuff was out there when I was in my hey day. I relied on a disc, Sun mistral w/16 spokes, and a Scott DH bar to go fast back then, and it was all because of Lemond, and the guy who won Desert Princess; it worked for them, it's gotta work for me :^)

Bikes are being tested with wheels and riders, as opposed to the days when frames were tested all by themselves with a pair of Hed CX wheels. It has been admitted that there was a lot to learn then, and probably a lot to learn now.

I would wager money that the Ashtabula fork on my BMX bike from waaaaaaay back when is one of the most aero out there, by virtue of the blades AND the size (as it was on a 20" wheeled bike).
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Re: Poll: predictions on what will be contradictory in the aero department [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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But the current Jetstreams, et.al. are poorly designed, add too much of a weight bias to the front end, and the straw can be VERY unaero (just my opinion). It can be executed better, in my opinion.
OK, if it can be executed better I'd like to hear some suggestions. I just find it hilarious that aero weenies are losing sleep over little straws sticking out at the front of bikes when there's a HUGE TORSO directly behind the straw catching tons more wind.

If you're going to get in a tizzy about straws, then why not worry about all that extra air catching the 1-1/8 inch headsets now out there. It's that much more surface area at the front end. Right? Or maybe it makes the front end look like a Softride...

Besides, Bunnyman, you shouldn't be concerned about a little straw sticking up when you've got those two big rakes protruding from your fuzzy jowls.
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Re: Poll: predictions on what will be contradictory in the aero department [itchyghost] [ In reply to ]
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I would give you the suggestions, but then everyone would know what they were and I could not market them. I did, however, give suggestions in this thread on how to fix the current designs, as hackneyed as they may sound.

I hate 1 1/8" headsets as much as I do Integrated (not zero-stack), at least on a bike for timed events. I refuse to buy a frame with one of those wind-catchers (or as I call them, beer can headtubes). They're okay on a road bike, but downright silly on a timed event bike.

My ears are QUITE aerodynamic, I will let you know. I am automatically in a tuck even sitting around. I have the slim-line jowls which help fair in my ears. But my ears only stick up when I am just sitting around, as they do tuck down while I ride or run.

My main beef with the Jetstreams, et. al., is just that they are poorly designed and add too much weight to the front end of the bicycle. But I have been tooling around in the garage (just bought five yards of unidirectional yesterday and a gallon kit of epoxy) and may come up with a better solution. The straw could arguably be in already dirty air, but most people leave them WAAAAAY too long, as well.
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Re: Poll: predictions on what will be contradictory in the aero department [cmetri] [ In reply to ]
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I thought that the Aerolites were still around. Maybe why they weren't mentioned in the timeline is that the design is a bit close in the cleat design (i.e. retention device is in the cleat). Who knows?

I think I could see a serious comeback of the the bars from the Extreme/100K school of thought. The wing looks cool, but they have some serious design limitations (weight, what a bloody anvil!). They could be built better. But the old one-piece bars were simple, solid designs that (with a bit of tweaking) could easily be better than anything that is currently on the market.
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front wheel and down tube [ In reply to ]
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it keep reading that a water bottle on the down tube will make the seat tube invisible to the wind. does the front wheel have the same effect on the down tube? if not why?

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: front wheel and down tube [customerjon] [ In reply to ]
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I thought that it was the seat tube. All I know for certain is that seat and downtube bottles are really, really bad for aerodynamics.
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Re: front wheel and down tube [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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yeah i was thinking the same thing but tt.org was speaking of some honorable cobb data saying something about the down tube bottle drafting the seat tube. i's confused.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: front wheel and down tube [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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OK, both of you must have missed this article, so read up:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...tr/waterbottles.html

The cost of water bottles
7.7.03 by John Cobb
(www.slowtwitch.com)
The pursuit of better technology is a humbling experience. For more than a decade I’ve traveled to wind tunnels to perform tests on bikes and race cars and the athletes that ride and drive them, all in an attempt to demystify the conundrum of air in motion. The aerodynamic cost or benefit of water bottles has been a popular topic on internet forums in recent months, and my experience in testing them—the subject of this article—was humbling because my results differed from my preconceptions, and from my public comments on the subject prior to doing the testing.

Back in '86 or '87 I tested water bottles in various locations on bikes and we learned some good things. Almost all the bikes at that time, however, had round tubing. Most of the bikes were made of steel. That tubing was not very large and the down and seat tubes were only just over an inch in diameter. There were a few aero tubes out of steel, but they were small—just under a half inch wide by one and a quarter inches tall. This is half the size of today’s aero aluminum and carbon shapes, in both the X and Y axis. These smaller tubes didn't test well with standard round bottles attached to them. We also didn't know anything about the relation of side winds to overall drag.

As the interest in the knowledge of aerodynamics picked up we were testing all kinds of things: equipment, body shapes, wheels, frames, helmets, and just an ongoing list of cycling-related products. As part of all this testing, a few—most notably Jim Martin—developed computer programs that helped us translate the effect of drag to one’s bike time. I believe these time/drag calculaters are getting pretty good, and I’ll apply some of them further in this article.

This most recent testing on several water bottle configurations took place at the Texas A&M wind tunnel. I chose a Quintana Roo Tiphoon in 55cm, which in terms of shape and style is a pretty representative bike. It had shaped aero tubes and was set up for triathlon racing, with Mavic Kysrium wheels front and rear, Syntace C2 clip-ons, pursuit bars, bar-end shifters and a round seat post with about 6cm showing. My test pilot was Bryan Cowan, who runs our Shreveport Bicycle Sports store. He's 5'10" and weighs about 150 lbs., races at the Ironman distance and occasionally joins me for a Krispy Kreme donut.

This was a pretty typical race setup, so as a reference point I started by testing the “base line” bike, with no bottles or cages anywhere, just rider and bike. I had decided that for this and all the water bottle tests I would use a "bell curve” to try to estimate a real-world effort. I estimated, in other words, the percentage of time that I guessed each wind angle would be felt on the bike during a representative ride, so as to approximate the winds faced in a typical race. I used "0" yaw (meaning the rider would face no side winds), all the way up to 30 degrees of yaw, at 5-degree increments. I decided that 0 = 15%, meaning that no side winds would be experienced by the rider during 15% of his ride. He’d experience a 5-degree yaw 20% of the time (5 = 20%), and the balance of this hypothetical ride broke down this way: 10 = 20%, 15 = 15%, 20 = 15%, 25 = 10%, and 30 = 5%.

As further explanation, the bottles referenced in the testing below were only the standard, round bottles you're most used to, in the smaller size (not the tall, 25 oz. bottles). The only exception to this was when we tested a front bottle, and the one we chose was Profile Design's between the handlebar model. Our reference to "high" and "low" behind-the-seat bottles denotes the two different styles of bottle carriers today. By "low" we mean those in which the tops of the bottles are at about the same level as the top of the saddle, and "high" means the bottom of these bottles is almost at the height of the top of the saddle. In both cases we tested two bottles side-by-side in their carriers.

One of the more impactful things we have learned over the years is that small changes in one area of the bike affects other areas, e.g., a rider’s legs might change the results of how wind affects a particular bike tube. To be as real-life as possible, then, I placed Brian aboard for these tests, and on a bike set-up that was not tuned for minimal drag, but in a good, comfortable and powerful Ironman set-up. The baseline run for the bike and rider was 7.537 lbs. of drag at 30mph, and I felt this was pretty typical of the drag a good bike and rider would generate for that distance (except for the difference various aerodynamic wheels would represent). This means that every exposed square inch of surface, bike and rider, has a force of 7.537 lb. to overcome at this speed (I realize that 30mph is not a typical Ironman speed. It is the speed used in wind tunnel tests performed by most of the industry, and we use it to be able to compare with the studies we and others are doing).

There were several things I wanted to test: standard water bottles, front bottles, Camelbacs/Hydropacs, rear-bottle setups and aero bottles. I didn't quite get it all done—the economics of $500 per wind tunnel hour impinges on the degree of comprehension in our tests—but I did test the things I felt were most important. We realize that people make important equipment decisions based on testing like ours, so we spent a good bit of time trying to be sure the results we did achieve were pretty accurate.

I'm going to publish two sets of numbers below, one is for a 40k distance using a 225-watt average and the other is for an Ironman distance using a 150-watt average. I think these are pretty typical numbers for a decent age-group athlete over these two distances. The drum roll please…


Ave. Drag 40 km 112 mi
base bike, no bottles 7.537 1:07:26 5:56:48
down tube bottle only 7.370 1:06:58 5:54:29
seat tube bottle only 7.433 1:07:09 5:55:22
bottles on both tubes 7.598 1:07:36 5:57:38
Profile bottle only 7.337 1:06:53 5:54:01
Hydropac w/40oz. only 7.556 1:07:29 5:57:01
Never Reach only 7.561 1:07:30 5:57:07
behind-seat low bottles 7.658 1:07:45 5:58:27
behind-seat high bottles 7.578 1:07:32 5:57:27

What does all this mean? Well, you need fluids to finish triathlons, and it turns out that having a down tube bottle on an aero frame isn't all that bad. It also means that I, once again, must eat humble pie, because I have been preaching that frame bottles are bad. Interestingly enough, having both down and seat tube bottles is in fact bad, so I was half right. I was surprised how effective the down tube bottle was. My guess is that it breaks the air around the seat tube, so the bike acts more like a frame with no seat tube, so, less drag (Softrides are examples of this phenomenon).

I was initially skeptical about these results, so we got out the smoke wand and put some wool tufts on the frame in various places. If you videotape the smoke and slow the replay you can see how all this might work. I could not see it by just watching the smoke, hence our need to slow everything down. Then you could see the interaction of the tubes, the bottles and the rider’s legs. I went back through some of my early years testing and realized we never tested frames and bottles with riders—only the bare bikes—so I'm pretty sure it's the rider that makes for a lot of these changes, combined with the much larger aero tubing.

What about all the different front- and rear-mounted water systems? We’ve got more testing to do in these areas, but the benefits of carrying enough fluid so as to keep properly hydrated far outweigh the aero differences. I think the handiness of the "Never Reach" system, as an example, makes these something to consider—whatever system makes fluid easy for you to drink from, and doesn't eject your bottles, would be a wise choice.

As always, I plan to do some more testing and try to continue to unravel some of these mysteries. I didn't get the aero shaped frame bottles tested, for example. I had done a good bit of that a few years earlier when I was designing a new frame for Lance, and found that an aero bottle worked very well on his seat tube. But aero frame-tube bottles aren't readily available at this time, so I've deferred that testing for now.
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Re: front wheel and down tube [TimeTrial.org] [ In reply to ]
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so from what i can tell the aerobar mounted water bottle that a lot of people hate are actually pretty good. the straw doesn't get in the way.

so if the seat tube does draft off of the down tube water bottle how much does the down tube draft off the front wheel?

to be honest the more i learn about aerodynamics and wieght on the bike the more i say screw it and worry more about fit and training.

the issac-carbon bike is ultra super nasty sexy though. it's like amy wynn pastor sexy.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
Last edited by: customerjon: Sep 6, 03 21:21
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Re: front wheel and down tube [TimeTrial.org] [ In reply to ]
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I mixed it up. I stand corrected.

But the bottle issue is one which I named as a contradiction discovered this year. Remember? Water bottles are BAD on the frame up until this year.

I will restate the original question: what contradictions do you predict will come out this year?
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Re: front wheel and down tube [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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no, water bottles, according to the first article, were good, only he gave no time comparisons for such

this time he put the bike in the tunnel WITH the rider on it, the first time he put the bike in the tunnel WITHOUT the rider on it

see the differences now?

silly rabbit
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