the reason i asked the odd question i did. when i hear about training sessions with pc's if some one goes over two hours i hear the term 'wow that must be some kind of record.' but i hear about needing 6 to 8 hour rides to do well in the iron distances. i was just wondering if pc users have to ride less miles and if they find they don't need mega rides to do well.

i'm still studiyng the quanity vs quality debate and am looking at every angle i can.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

It is not that unusual to get to two hours of training with PC's. It is that unusual to get to two hours in the first week. I think that is the comments you have heard.

It is, of course, necessary to get to 5 hour endurance with PC's in one is training for an IM. Most can get to this level in 3-4 months. I must say I was impressed talking with Tara Lee Marshall at IMC (who didn't do the race because of injury) when she told me she did 5 hours on the PC's on the CompuTrainer. Now, that is hard. almost everyone tells me that that road miles are easier than trainer miles.

---

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

thanks i got it now. new guys can't pedal as long because they are not trained to the new way of pedaling. this makes perfect sense. how long does it take, on the average, for someone t oget back up to thier normal training times? ball park...best guess.

in the next 30 years i will have a bike and if luck be with me i will get some pc's. you now have a future future customer.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

It depends, but I would guess that 90% of those who use them "right" are back up to "normal" distances and speeds in 1-2 months.

---

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

[/reply][reply]Perfection wrote: "In the report on PC's Ben made the following
statement, " Seated climbing is no big problem----
because even on normal cranks there is a far more
even distribution of power"
What is the explanation for this? "

with PC's the application of power is spread out all the way around the circle, not just on the down stroke. This is most evident to the user when climbing, when the cadence is low(er) and the effort is high(er).[/reply][reply]



I understand about the even spread of power of the
PC's, I was more interested why the power was more
evenly spread with normal cranks, with an objective
in mind once I got the answer.
I made an earlier reference that PC pedaling was
the closest one could get to the ANKLING technique,
would you agree with that. An animated version with
detailed explanation of ankling can be found with
a yahoo search for " ankling " at Andrew Bradley's
excellent site.
If you saw it, the reason for my low rating of a half
out of five for PC's was because I was referring to
experienced round pedalers and to cycling only.
If it was for beginners the rating would have been
three and a half, the deductions for the fact that
isolated leg training can be used and cost.
But of course Anquetil's technique has to get five out
of five because not only does it more than double
the advantages of the ROTOR system but it also
quadruples the differerence in smoothness of
technique and it does no cost a cent. But here again
before you can acquire this technique, you must
already be a good circular pedaler, so even here PC'S can play their part.

I can answer for myself on how long it took to get "back to form." Once you get spousal permission on spending for them (they do what!?!?!) I think that is the thing that keeps people away the most.

At first, I could not turn the pedals over for more than 2 minutes at a time. I was expecting that. It still frustrated me. I did 5x2min 3 times a day for 3 days and built to 3x15min 3 times a day over the next week. I work in a home office and it's relatively easy for me to slip in some time like this (my bike is on the trainer behind me right now). Others might have it harder finding time and maybe 2 times a day is all that's possible. I think that would work just fine.

The interesting thing here is that there are two kinds of fatigue. The first is the hip flexor, which is just plan weak. The second is this odd kind of fatigue that you can't really place on one muscle. It's like your whole leg is tired. Not sore, just tired, like it had a long day at the office and just wants to watch TV and go to bed. It's very odd.

Then I hit the roads and was back up to normal miles for me within six weeks, albeit at a lower cadence. Once your hip flexors are nuked the natural reaction is to put it in a higher gear where you can turn the pedals over more easily, but more slowly.

In order to get cadence back I went back to what worked the first time. 5x2min at 90+ cadence 3 times a day, then build from there. So I was back to "normal" probably in 8 to 10 weeks. There was hard work over that 10 weeks but that's why I bought them.

Now two spinerals sessions on PCs and one long ride a week give me all the bike work I need. That's my normal schedule.

matt

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"When I cleaned up my diction, I had nothing left to say" -- Van Morrison

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[ Usenet FAQs | Search | Web FAQs | Documents | RFC Index ] 8h.8 Ankling, a pedaling style

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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 14:04:39 PSTAnkling, a topic of much discussion, has been claimed to improvedperformance in bicycling, although not by racers and coaches. It hasbeen touted as one of the techniques for excellence that appeals tobicyclists mainly because it requires no additional effort. Thatthere are different ankle motions while pedaling is apparent, althoughmost of these are not by choice nor do they effect efficiency.Because so much attention was given the subject in the 1960's, itprompted a study in Italy, in which some leading racers noted fortheir abilities as well as a distinct pedaling style were fit withinstrumentation to numerically capture the stroke. Among them wasJacques Anquetil who had a noticeably different ankle motion.The study determined that there was no consistency among those testedand that ankling, much like people's walking gait, is caused byphysical individuality rather than any advantage. Typically, somewalking gaits are so pronounced that a person can be recognized by itat a distance. Some people raise their heel before stepping off onthe next stride while others "peel" the foot from the floor in acontinuous motion. To artificially emulate someone's ankle motion orlack thereof, while pedaling, is as useless as emulating a walkinggait. The study laid ankling to rest for a while, but because urbanlegends have a life of their own, rising again at the slightestopportunity, ankling, with its lore, is assured a long life.

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[ [url "http://www.faqs.org/faqs/"][u][#0000ff]Usenet FAQs[/#0000ff][/u][/url] | [url "http://www.faqs.org/faqs/faqsearch.html"][u][#0000ff]Search[/#0000ff][/u][/url] | [url "http://www.faqs.org/contrib/"][u][#0000ff]Web FAQs[/#0000ff][/u][/url] | [url "http://www.faqs.org/docs/"][u][#0000ff]Documents[/#0000ff][/u][/url] | [url "http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/"][u][#0000ff]RFC Index[/#0000ff][/u][/url] ] 8h.8 Ankling, a pedaling style [hr] [font "Arial"][size 3]Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 14:04:39 PSTAnkling, a topic of much discussion, has been claimed to improvedperformance in bicycling, although not by racers and coaches. It hasbeen touted as one of the techniques for excellence that appeals tobicyclists mainly because it requires no additional effort. Thatthere are different ankle motions while pedaling is apparent, althoughmost of these are not by choice nor do they effect efficiency.Because so much attention was given the subject in the 1960's, itprompted a study in Italy, in which some leading racers noted fortheir abilities as well as a distinct pedaling style were fit withinstrumentation to numerically capture the stroke. Among them wasJacques Anquetil who had a noticeably different ankle motion.The study determined that there was no consistency among those testedand that ankling, much like people's walking gait, is caused byphysical individuality rather than any advantage.

==========================================================================[/reply]


These researchers did not have the brains to see
that there could be a link between Anquetil's noticeably different ankle motion and his mysterious
extra pedal power. A simple pressure test and
comparison between the power that Anquetil could
apply to a fixed pedal set at 1 o'clock and the power
of all other volunteers would have given the researchers their answers.
Except for Anquetil and Obree, nobody else has
researched a new technique instead all research
is based on equipment that is trying to correct
an imperfect pedaling technique.
In the same way medical experts in their search for
a cure for cycling related lower back pain have based
all their research on the round pedaling style, which
is in fact the root cause of the problem. Anquetil's
technique is the instant and complete cure.
In both examples what the researchers are doing is
trying to dig their way out of a hole.

My own experience with getting back to "normal" is as follows: my first ride on PC's on a trainer I was only able to do 2 minute intervals with 30 second rests for 20 minutes total. Over the next two weeks I rode them 3-4 times a week, gradually increasing the work intervals to the point that I could ride for one hour continuously on the trainer. I then took them outdoors and was able to do an hour very easily (stop lights make for good rest breaks). Within 3 weeks I was up to 3 hour outdoor rides (riding 2-3 times a week indoors for an hour, and one long outdoor ride per week). Mind you, the last hour or so of those 3 hour rides was a sufferfest- my HF's were toasted so the cadence dropped way down. My problem was that I installed them too late in the season, and my training plan long rides were starting to get longer than I could muster on the PC's. Plan called for 4-5 hour rides, and I could only do 3 hours, so I chickened out and swapped out the PC's for regular cranks, as I only had 6 weeks left to prepare for my first IM. Anecdotally, 5-6 hour long rides on the regular cranks immediately felt very easy, even with 7000' of climbing- I felt like I was climbing much better than ever, even though my average speed wasn't up significantly (I don't think I rode the PC's long enough to realize any significant improvement in avg speed or running). Now that I've finished my first IM, the PC's are going back on this week, and I intend to use them exclusively going forward.

Mr. Perfection

There should be no difference between riding PC's and regular cranks once one is up to speed on them and assuming one isn't past the fatigue failure point. so what one feels on PC's one should also feel on regular cranks (or Rotor Cranks) after an appropriate training period.

Regarding ankling. I don't know. I would presume that if anything would encourage ankling PC's would because one doesn't have to lift the thigh quite so high to get the foot over the top if one is ankling a lot but nothing about PC's says one has to "ankle".

---

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks