Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BarryP

So when you train for an IM you are doing weekly 20+ mile stand alone runs?

The Pro IM distance plans I've seen only had them running 4days a week not 100% on mileage, got the plans at work.

And typically you don't take a rest day? (I don't always take a rest day but listen to my body)
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BarryP wrote:
When I trained for one in '06:


m 5 mile run, 0 bike, 3000m swim
t 12 mile run, 0 bike, 3000m swim
w 5 mile run, 50 mile bike
r 5 mile run , 25 mile bike, 3000m swim
f 20+ mile run, 0 bike, 3000m swim
s 5 mile run, 25 mile bike
s 0 run, 100 mile bike

So how did that work out for you in regards to your bike spit? I seem to remember you getting crushed by tons of soccer mom's and grandmas on the bike but then you were very happy with your run despite it being slower than 75% of T-pace;)

In hind sight do you think your training plan was a sound one?

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [Newyorkfan21] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
So when you train for an IM you are doing weekly 20+ mile stand alone runs?


No. You asked for a one week snap shot and I gave you one.

Long run milage builds just like everything else. Long runs are typically about 1/3 of total mileage, so on a 52 mile week it would be about 17 miles. In the months leading up to the IM, this gets increased on a 10-14 day basis.



Quote:
The Pro IM distance plans I've seen only had them running 4days a week not 100% on mileage, got the plans at work.

Yes. I covered this earlier. The pro's can't train 40 hours a week, so they cut back in different disciplines. If a pro is capable of running 80-100 miles a week on 7-12 runs a week, then he is capable of running 50-60 miles a week on 4 runs. In fact, he might even ramp up the intensity on some of those runs to ger more out of fewer workouts.

As I've said several times now, there are plenty of reasons to compact your run mileage into fewer workouts. Risk of injury is not one of them.





-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
So how did that work out for you in regards to your bike spit?

My split was 16.4 miles an hour in wind, hills, and rain, which put me at ~1,000th of 2,500 people. Considering that I had a grand total of 1 year of riding under my belt (i.e. zero miles a week for the previous 32 years of my life), I was pretty pleased. I also finished the swim in 1:17 at ~850th, which wasn't bad for 0 meters a week for the previous 32 years of my life.

The only thing I would have done differently would have been to have more experience going into the race. I didn't leave anything on the table in my bike training. I was pushing myself pretty hard in training. Keep in mind, I don't remember the exact numbers. I might have had a 5th ride every week, or my 25 milers might have been 35 milers. I just remember the 50 miler and 100 miler, and then a bunch of other rides in between.

For the most part, I followed Gordon Byrne's plan and had Desert Dude tweak my running just a bit (prior to working with him, I was trying the 4 day a week approach and got hurt) and got swim advice from DD as well as the swim coach at the local university.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If I can, allow me to summarize the main point that at least *I* am trying to make.

There are plenty of reasons to run fewer than 6 days a week and there are plenty of people who are very successful doing it. Injury prevention is not one of those reasons, and this is true for at least 99% of the runners out there.

Virtually everyone will run better if they run 6 days a week instead of 4. Running better, however, is not the primary goal of a triathlon. Getting to the finish line as fast as you can is and for many people running better may be the best way to do that.

At this point I'd like to quote one of my training partners as we watched a bunch of triathletes doing yet another needless interval workout at our track. "These guys will never get any good because they have gone their entire lives without ever breaking 35 miles a week."

In order to become a good runner, you HAVE to pay your dues! A lifetime peak of 4 hours a week of running just isn't going to cut it. If you want to increase beyond 4 hours a week of running, the best, safest, most efficient way to do so is to increase your frequency.....not decrease it.

Having said that, if you read through my plan (linked in my sig line) you'll note that plenty of people training for an IM will actually end up running only 4 days a week through much of the months leading up to the race. In a nutshell the plan has you running 6 days a week with 3 short runs, 2 medium runs that are double the duration of the short runs, and one long run that is triple the duration. I also advocate getting your long run up to 80% of the race distance (limit at 3 hours). That's 21 miles for an IM. In order to run 21 miles with my plan, you need to be running 70 miles a week. Not too many people can do that.

If you can't run 21 miles a week (like almost no one can in a tri plan) I advocate doing an ultra long run every other week and then borrow back the miles from the following two runs. If your milage is low enough (say you are running 3s, 6s, and a 9 on a normal week) and you do an ultra run of 18 miles, that's 9 miles longer than your normal long run. That means you cut out 9 miles of the first two runs of the next week.....which is everything.

So a normal week would be:
3, 6, 3, 6, 3, 0, 9

An ultra long run week would be:
3, 6, 3, 6, 3, 0, 18

The week following the ultra long run would be:
0, 0, 3, 6, 3, 9 --> FOUR days.


Also note above that I was doing 4 short days, 1 medium, and 1 long. IF I wanted to maximize my running, I would have done a 2nd medium day. However, I felt it was more important to push my bike training so I sacrificed a a medium length run. Despite what DD is writing here, he actually suggested it at the time. Why? Because I ran a 16:00 5K that year but was a MOP rider because of my lack of bike fitness. Most triathletes suffer on the run........

.....which leads to anther point in that article that I thought was missed. Was are there so many sucky runners compared to swimmers and bikers in triathlon? Triathlon doesn't attract runners the way it attracts swimmers and cyclists. Runners don't need to do tries because they have road races. I've found the triathlon to be overwhelmingly filled up with former swimmers and riders who want an activity that they don't need to be part of a team anymore to do. This is one of these reasons why DD is so adamant about pushing the run training for his athletes. Most of them can already swim and ride, but they completely fall off the back of the pack on the run.

Anyway, as I said before, there are plenty of reasons not to run 6 days a week, but injury prevention is not one of them.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
There are "sucky runners" in tris because most are extremely undertrained as whole (and fat) and not jut on the run. I guarantee if you switched the order of the bike and run you'd think there were a lot of "sucky cyclists".

Your point about paying your dues to be a good runner applies to all three sports, not just running.
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BarryP

Your IM weekly snapshot seemed to be mainly running focused; hence the 16.1 mph IM bike. Not putting down your results just an observation.

IM training is about all 3 disciplines/balance focus too much on one and...well.
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [Newyorkfan21] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It seems that we've gotten to the point where people want to argue just to argue. Whether or not my tri program was run focussed or if it sacrificed my bike fitness has absolutely nothing to do with a frequency to injury relationship.

I will say for about the billionth time now, there are plenty of reasons to run less often. Risk of injury is not one of them.


With regard to a run focussed program - my program was not run focussed. I cut back my running a lot and biked as much as I possibly could. After 1 year of triathloning I finished an IM in the top 18%. How many people do that?

Why did I run a lot compared to my riding miles? Why was my run split faster than my bike split? Because I had literally been running 20 years, including being the #1 guy on my college team, and had been riding for 1. My first ride that year was an all out 30 minute flat time trial where I averaged 14 miles an hour.


If you want to compare programs, you can talk to DD. I think he almost broke 4 hours in an HIM.




Okay, would anyone else like to comment on something that they have no clue about while simultaneously saying that everyone is unique? What next? Shall I send pictures of my hair cut and we can all discuss that?

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [ICSTG] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ICSTG wrote:
Unless you're a pro? Do you think there is something magical about being a pro? It has nothing to do if you're a pro. It has to do with how your plan is built and the intensity of the runs.


-1
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [ICSTG] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ICSTG wrote:
This thread has become one of my favorites. I love the dick swinging - I'm a coach, I'm going to Kona, I'm faster than you thrown into the posts.

it starts after about 5 entries
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [ICSTG] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ICSTG wrote:
I guarantee if you switched the order of the bike and run you'd think there were a lot of "sucky cyclists".

This is a pretty silly statement to make
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [Carl L] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Carl L wrote:
ICSTG wrote:
This thread has become one of my favorites. I love the dick swinging - I'm a coach, I'm going to Kona, I'm faster than you thrown into the posts.

it starts after about 5 entries

How so? Do you see me posting my times and credentials to justify my comments? Nope.
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [Newyorkfan21] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Why are you trying to make this so hard? Just to prove some point? This isn't rocket science. Running 5 times a week for 40 miles total is less likely to cause injury than running 3 times for 40 mile total. Period.

It's easy to construct a 5-6x per week run in an IM training program.
This is midway through the build phase:
1-B25-30 (HIM pace) w/R5, S3000
2-R10
3-B25 (intervals) w/R5, S2500
4-R10, S2500
5-B80
6-Rest (optional R5)
7-Run15
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [Newyorkfan21] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Give a few weeks of your typically IM training programs For your athletes to the OP S/B/R including the 5-6x running a week I am sure it will be helpful.

So you want me to go through my files and dig out some programs then take the time to transfer those programs that may or may not be applicable to your situation into a post?

That's going to cost you and I'm not cheap, nor am I expensive as far as tri coaches go, but if I'm doing that work, you're hitting my paypal account.

Still interested? PM or email me.

What you should be doing is sending BarryP a bottle of beer and some tylenol. He's banged his head against your wall enough times to knock a hole in it.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"What you should be doing is sending BarryP a bottle of beer and some tylenol. He's banged his head against your wall enough times to knock a hole in it."


sounds kinda kinky when you put it like that
Last edited by: gregn: Sep 1, 12 16:17
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Man I go ride my bike for 5 hours and I missed this thread turning into something totally awesome.

Goddamn training getting in the way of slowtwitch.
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Shall I send pictures of my hair cut and we can all discuss that?
Yes please.
BarryP your plan has made me a far superior runner compared to what I was 6 months ago.Thanks
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [Carl L] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Carl L wrote:
ICSTG wrote:
Unless you're a pro? Do you think there is something magical about being a pro? It has nothing to do if you're a pro. It has to do with how your plan is built and the intensity of the runs.


-1

I cannot figure why you would give this statement a "-1"?? It says that getting the best out of your performance is not different for a "pro". Training for humans is very much regulated by physiology, not some label of pro vs AG. Many "pros" have full time and part time jobs as well. Giving a simple statement like that a "-1" is just silly, naive, or unintelligent...
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [Carl L] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Carl L wrote:
ICSTG wrote:
This thread has become one of my favorites. I love the dick swinging - I'm a coach, I'm going to Kona, I'm faster than you thrown into the posts.


it starts after about 5 entries

Some made it late to the party...like 134th...
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I know we've beaten this horse to death.....actually, I had thought the horse died many years ago, but some folks have been by the stable lately.


There seems to be some confusion from a few people lately about what high frequency means.


When those of us who advocate high frequency for running, say for example, running 6 days a week while only swimming 4 or cycling 4, we are not necessarily suggesting that you over-emphasize the run in your program. It has NOTHING to do with the balance of your training volume in the 3 disciplines.

What we mean is that if you are going to run X hours a week, and swim Y hours, and cycle Z hours, that you should split your running hours into smaller chunks than you do with your swim and cycle.

This is not done at the risk of injury. This is done TO REDUCE THE RISK OF INJURY!

I have, in fact, on multiple occasions on this forum advised people that if they wish to add two runs a week, that they should definitely start that week with the same weekly mileage that they have been doing. X/6 is smaller per run than X/4 is.

Having said that, there are many who specifically struggle on the run and wish to improve. The best way to do that in most cases is to increase the run mileage. The best way to do that is to increase the run frequency. If you are a person who doesn't need to do this, fine, don't do it. What do I care?

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Running 5-6x is definitely the way to go.

Training for IMAZ in 2010, I was doing only a few runs per week and ended up hurting my knee from going to hard. I had done very little running up until January of this year.

Getting ready for Oceanside in March, I used a plan developed by Desert Dude that advocated 6 days of running per week and have been injury free since. As he and BarryP have been stating volume, consistency and slower running makes all the difference. I obtained all of the paces to us from the mcmillan calculator. I used this plan to PR by 48min at Oside!

I have a similar plan for IMAZ this year, which also has 5-6 days of week of running. It may seem like a lot of running, but it will make all the difference come race day. I will be following this and an expecting similar results for Ironman.

BarryP and Desert Dude know what they are talking about.


______________________________________________________
fatigue is voluntary
Quote Reply
Re: 5(or less) or 6 runs per week Ironman training? [BlueHen] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I have to resurrect this thread! Great read. Running 6 times a week with im and 70.3 training has made me a better triathlete. Great advice
Quote Reply

Prev Next