I was blocked 2 times at the half Vineman going down hill by guys riding inches from the center line. Each time it was by somebody with an LA Tri Club jersey.(not the same guy) By the time I reached the finish line I had almost forgotten about it. But when I went to grab a water from the giant ice box at the finish line I found 2 more LA Tri Club folks soaking their sweaty feet in it and changed my mind. I wish I had some names because there are at least 4 LA people who need to be shamed.



Dave

In Ohio, drivers who've been convicted of DUI and are on probation have to swap out their nice red white and blue standard license plates with plain yellow plates (they actually look sort of like PA's old plates!). To let the world know they got busted.

Maybe convicted triathletes would have to wear lime green shorts or something.

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on the spot testical waxing. with that i see drafting as a thing of the past.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Let the flames begin!!! I know I'm opening myself up to all sorts of crap, but here goes.

Great story, and it doesn't suprise me one bit. Although the bit about soaking the feet is something new. I have those damned red and blue jereseys forever etched in my mind from all of the drafting I've seen. I've heard complaints from many other participants about them at any race I've been to where there's been a large red and blue contingent. What amazes me is that I've also heard/overheard complaints from spectators.

Now of course it's probably just another case of "a few bad apples" giving the group a bad name. That plus team kits always seem to be much more visible and memorable then an anonymous uniform. But I do know that the complaints and grumblings I've heard and felt are consistent and frequent. I'd expect clubs in general to be very sensitive about their image and the behavior of their athletes.

I wouldn't doubt that this is popular in the bike racing community.

but i don't think it's the way for our sport. do you realize that we've grown from about 130,000 triathletes to about 200,000 triathletes in the U.S. in just 3 years? and that half the increase is women? does bike racing have this sort of growth? not even! and they've got the hottest property in all of sports when it comes to a role model inviting new entrees.

i remember when cycling had its two big booms, and it was after alexi grewal won the '84 olympics, and during the lemond years. now, here's lance, and if lance's example is driving anyone to do anything, it's not to race bikes, it's to do a triathlon.

and w/regard to the L.A. Tri Club members that the other poster mentioned, does anyone really think they blocked on purpose? our problem is that we don't take knowledge of the rules seriously in our sport. there are a LOT of ways to do this, and we engage in very few of them. i've already listed a variety of ways we can help sell the knowledge of the rules, and here are two others i haven't mentioned:

1. we have over 150 active trifed certified coaches in the U.S., and currently we do not have knowledge of the rules included in tbe curriculum, i.e., our coaches can help you get 15 seconds faster in the run, but many or most of them can't save you the 2 minutes you'll lose via the penalty you get because of "abandonment of equipment" (you tossed a gu wrapper outside of the feed zone). why don't we make sure a trifed certified coach at least has a basic knowledge of the rules?

2. we don't have a test. what if part of your annual membership sign-up process was taking a test, like a driving test? it doesn't even have to be required, it can be voluntary. you sign up online, and then after the whole process is over, a screen comes up asking if you'd like to take a test that will gauge your knowledge of the rules? and you'd end up with a score that would demonstrate at what percentile of the entire 50,000 annual members you sit? (you take a 25-question test, and at the end you find you have a knowledge base that is at the 85th percentile, or the 33rd, whatever).

in other words, we need to bring the issue of the rules front and center. it just isn't there yet. not among the majority of the sport's practitioners. we can't beat them up with an online site embarrasing them, and we can't penalize them into submission. we have a sport that has an average time-of-service of perhaps 2 years. you know rules now that you didn't know a year or two ago. but what was your level of rules-sophistication when you were only six months or a year into the sport? why drive new people away from triathlon by embarrasing and punishing them for not knowing rules, when our sport's culture never has made rules-knowledge a prerequisite to entry?

my contention is that we don't have a sport full of cheaters and profligates. we have a sport that is culturally closer to a 10k than it is to a bike race. nobody knows the rules in a 10k, they just enter the race and go. we have a populist sport that is growing like mad, and we haven't developed a culture in which we make knowledge of the rules both necessary and relatively pain free. that ought to be our goal.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I disagree. The people I've seen intentionally drafting are not new to the sport, especially at the Ironman distance. Heck, most of the newbie cyclists I meet don't even know the benefits of drafting!

You see bad drivers all day long, but when a police car is nearby they suddenly discover the speed limit, turn signaling, a safe braking distance, stop signs, etc.

Yes, let's put the violators on a web site and increase the time penalty.

Besides, what are the rules in a 10k? Don't cut the course? Be nice to others? Most people know the rules in mountain bike racing and follow them, which is culturally close to triathlons and has perhaps equaly extensive rules.

I really like the idea of a test, even though optional. So many triathletes are competitive enough that they want to outscore the others, or do better this time on the test than the last time.

As far as people not knowing the rules...I took a running buddy of mine to a duathlon. I had to work on his bike to make sure the cobwebs wouldn't foul his shifting and that his chain would stay on, and that the bike was otherwise safe (replaced a brake cable, etc.) He did fairly well. I even think he may be hooked on the sport. BUT, afterward he mentioned how much easier it was to ride when some big guy passed him and got in front of him for a few miles. He had no idea he was breaking the rules.

That is MY fault. This kind of mistake is avoidable, for obvious reasons. I should have gone over all the rules with him beforehand.

The blatant, obvious disregard for the rules people are another problem...maybe you should be allowed one infraction in a race every five years; thereafter, if you get an infraction, your name is posted for others to see. This would keep the truly ignorant from being embarrassed out of the races, but it might help stop the purposeful cheater from continuing. Then again, who's going to volunteer to keep up with the records?

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

"The people I've seen intentionally drafting are not new to the sport"

hey, don't get me wrong. i DON'T think we ought to just stop penalizing people. i'm saying that the GREATEST number of infractions are BY FAR those which do not involve drafting. yes, by all means, throw drafters in jail and toss the key.

"blocking" and "overtaken" are BY FAR the biggest problems. MUCH more than drafting. these are the sorts of rules that are broken by people who don't know any better.

now, should they know better? yes. is it anyone else's fault but their own when they get a penalty? no.

but i'm pretty sure many of you guys and gals don't see the bigger picture. our sport carries more weight the larger it gets. we get more of what we want as triathletes when there are more of us. when i got back into race promotion the first race i put on back in 1997 was an oly distance, and 25% of my field got a penalty. many of them were newbies. they screamed to high heaven.

you can say, hey, tough shit. but frankly, from a race director's point of view, fuck it. i'm going to back to putting on 10k races. and the newbies leave with them.

it's all well and good for you to say, "don't let the door hit you on the way out," but then don't complain when the sport tops out and starts to shrink, or when you don't have enough races in your area to make up a decent schedule. i remember those days, back in the early/mid 90s, when if you lived in the twin cities you didn't have two races to rub together all summer long. same in atlanta. and seattle. sure, it's great in these places now, but it can revert.

we are, or ought to be, an inclusive sport. so let's include, not alienate. let's show by our example that the rules are important, and explain to newbies (ad oldies) that they're important.

then, if the rules are broken, take them out back and whip them.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

By the way, I usually have a visceral dislike of overly officious, hall monitor-style approaches to things .

But folks who choose to cheat -- and prolonged drafting in TTs doesn't happen innocently -- deserve to be called to account. The old "stocks" on the village green functioned on much the same principle. :-)

Also liked the suggestion (other thread) that you disgorge sports drink over your shoulder at particularly flagrant offenders.

FWIW -- if you click on the link I posted in the initial message, you'll see it also contains (in addition to the "police blotter") a direct link to the rulebook.

I have done tris for 3 years. I know of the rules and have always done my best to avoid drafting etc.May sound weird. But... I rode with another biker for the first time ever last week. All others for 3 years were solo. I was freakin amazed how drafting assisted in our speed and effort. I have heard all th enumbers and efficency stuff but it makes such a difference that my opinion is.... Outside blatent safety issues. Drafting should be penalized more harshley than any other offense. I think most athletes do their best not to commit penalities. HOWEVER... I do not think enough of us avoid drafting and blocking etc. The rules are written in such a way that requires the athlete to AVOID such occurances not simply (not to seek them out). I am in favor of some sort of more aggressive stance. I am sure it will all work itself out as we mature as a sport.

My all-time favorite suggestion for stopping drafting was noted in a thread on rec.sport.triathlon, under the subject of "peeing while on the bike". It's a guaranteed method to get that wheel-sucker to back off.

LATC doesn't need me to come to their defense, but this is an issue that hits close to home. It can be easy to paint everyone wearing the same colors with one brush. If one club member breaks the rules and 50 are examples of sportsmanship, only the cheater will be remembered. Inland Inferno has very bright uniforms that are easily recognizable. We make a point of reminding members that they are representing the club and they need to be extra cautious of the rules. Funny story: of 53 members who raced at IMCDA we only incurred 1 penalty. 72 year old Alan Carlisle's wife walked with him for 1 block and he was assessed 4 minutes for outside assistance. The rules are the rules.
Gary Mc

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Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona

Non-draft triathlon should be swim-run-bike. That would significantly reduce the drafting problem. Why are we so glued to the swim-bike-run format anyway?

A bike finish is too logistically difficult for a tri. I assume you haven't done many bike races, but almost all races finish on a hill to prevent people hitting the line at 35+ miles an hour. This would just be another wrinkle in staging a tri to find a hill for the finish. Also USCF bike races are usually limited to 125 starters, most tris have way more people, only compounding the danger at the finish.

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"When I first had the opportunity to compete in triathlon, it was the chicks and their skimpy race clothing that drew me in. Everyone was so welcoming and the lifestyle so obviously narcissistic. I fed off of that vain energy. To me it is what the sport is all about."

Funny you should mention the LA Tri Club. I did 2 races in the last 2 months with many LA Tri Club members racing (I am not in this club).

In the first race, at the beginning of the run, an LATC male racer yelled at some pedestrians (very rudely) that there was a race on and that they should get _____ off the path. The race packet instructions specifically said that this portion of the run was on a multi-use path that was open to all, and these people were not in this guy's way. What a jerk, I thought.

Next race, 3 weeks later. I was riding near a group of about 20 guys (40k bike course) and I could not drop them. Since I am just a MOP swimmer, but a strong cyclist, I usually pass many on the bike, with few if any passing me. But with this group, every time I would pass the group, they would somehow (hmm.........drafting?) catch back up to me. I saw a few instances that looked like intentional drafting, and many others where riders failed to drop back out of the draft zone after being passed. But the most offensive part was after one of my final attempts to drop the group, a guy passed me, alone, and then yelled back to the group "C'mon, let's go!" as if he needed his dometiques to work harder. He was another LATC member. And I thought triathlon was an individual sport!

These may be the proverbial "bad apples" in the club - and I realize it is a very large club. But that's even more reason that the club itself should do something to educate its members about rules, and not breaking them as representatives of the club!

"A bike finish is too logistically difficult for a tri. I assume you haven't done many bike races, but almost all races finish on a hill to prevent people hitting the line at 35+ miles an hour. This would just be another wrinkle in staging a tri to find a hill for the finish. Also USCF bike races are usually limited to 125 starters, most tris have way more people, only compounding the danger at the finish."

Have never heard of -- much less encountered -- a 125 field limit for a time trial, which is the event most analogous to tri (no teamwork, no drafting).

All the ones I do have at least 150-180 racers (several have over 200), and none -- not one -- finishes on a hill.

In every case, most riders come across the line at high speed. What makes this feasible is that racers go off at 30 second intervals, and drafting rules are strictly enforced.

So yes, you occasionally have small groups coming in two or three abreast near the finish -- just as you would if bike were the final (rather than middle) phase of a tri (by that point, the entire event has created small gaps in the field). You have a backup spotter noting numbers about 30 meters from the line, and, if you're experienced, you remember to yell out your race number as you cross it.

Did a short tri in Lancaster Pa. years ago where the bike leg came last -- it worked just fine, even though there were hundreds of entrants and the finish was flat and followed a long descent, so there were plenty of sprint "kicks" at the end.

I suspect the "run comes last" tradition dates from the early days of tri, when the vast majority of triathletes were experienced runners who wanted to take on a new challenge, and the implicit assumption was that running was more of a 'real' athletic test.

actually, I have. and there is a vast difference between a sprint finish bike race and a bike finish triathlon. apples to oranges. I have done several tri's in the swim-run-bike format. by the time the bike portion comes around, the field is pretty well spread out - much more so than under the current format. by the time the finish comes in to sight, there are very few triathletes that could muster up a 35+ mph sprint finish, and even if there were, it is highly unlikely that they would be in a wild pack.

I couldn't resist peeking at the links. What's up with the "illegal parking" penalty?

BTW, I think most of you guys must either be in the tri hotbed that is California or near big population centers. I rarely see what appears to me to be a drafting violation around here (Tennessee), and I have never seen what I considered blatant "paceline-style" behavior. I think it's a combination of the terrain (most race courses are pretty rolling with numerous turns) and the fact that our races just aren't as crowded. Y'all come check it out. No, on second thought, don't.

<<2. we don't have a test. what if part of your annual membership sign-up process was taking a test, like a driving test? it doesn't even have to be required, it can be voluntary. you sign up online, and then after the whole process is over, a screen comes up asking if you'd like to take a test that will gauge your knowledge of the rules? and you'd end up with a score that would demonstrate at what percentile of the entire 50,000 annual members you sit? (you take a 25-question test, and at the end you find you have a knowledge base that is at the 85th percentile, or the 33rd, whatever).>>

Saving money is a huge motivator. Have the test administered online and a discount applied to the annual dues based on score. 100% = $10.00 off, 95% = $9.50 off, etc.

Brett

I'm looking for a link to the rulebook but haven't found it. Please help.

jaretj

I come from a bike racing background. I've been doing tris for 2 years now. When I was bikeracing I was a USCF Cat 2 official (waiting to test up to Cat 1) and a Cat 3 racer. I officated little local races and large major stage races. From that experience, the biggest violators were the people you assumed knew the rules. I remember one relatively stage race which I was at. I was drinving in comm 1 for the Pro/1 race(that is the first official behind the peloton or leaders). The yellow line rule was in effect because we did not have a closed course (rolling or complete). The ENTIRE peloton crossed the yellow line into on coming traffic. It scared the crap out of me and just about everybody who saw it. I could not possibly get all of the numbers so I did the best could. By the rule I had to disqualify any riders who cross the center line. That obviously dd not happen. The next day was the crit. I was assigned to the neutral pit. A rider (no names but certain Italian racing for a certain law enforcment team basedi in So. Cali) in the Pro/1 field "flatted" with about 10 laps to go. OK wheel change and get him back in. His tire was not flat and he was pt backinto the race on lap 8. Just then a certain rider (who still races...now for Saturn) did the same thin. put back in on lap 6. Guess who won. Guess who got second. Their legs were fresh. and their tires were not flat (I pumped them up and handed them back over around an hour later). The Italian got DQ'd and the winner was relagted. The head offical ade tha decision. Moral of the story...The ones who have been doing it longer tend to break the rules either out of trying to gain an advantage or are just oblivious to the the penalties. The newbies that break the rules do it because they probably just do't know them.

Maybe the penalties should be based on the length of license was held. example. someone who is new lic holder is penalized only a minute, whjile someone who has held a lic for 5 years is penalized 5 minutes, etc. If they break a rule that involves safety then the should be suspended for x amount of time a week, 2 weeks, whatever.

Yucko

Hi -- this is the USCF rulebook, and covers bike racing only (not tri). Click on here:

http://www.bike411.com/warnings.html

and then click on http://www.bike411.com/...03_uscf_rulebook.pdf

Or just do the latter.

It's in Adobe Acrobat, which you can dowload if needed from www.adobe.com

Yeah -- I bet that looked a bit weird out of context, eh?

We have to depend on the kindness of the folks of Chatsworth NJ for our state TT championship race course.

At their request, we try to minimize the impact on them of race day by parking in a designated area, a large lot near the school. Even then, that's easily 200+ more cars than the 15 or so max that are typically in this tiny town on a sleepy Sunday morning.

Parking instructions -- on pain of DQ -- were therefore sent to every registrant. As we heard it in the e-mail, evidently this guy parked right out on the course, and -- despite being instructed to move his car several times -- simply told the marshall to go pound sand.

This alone is regarded as the equivalent of poking an umpire at home plate, or scuffing dirt across the plate -- hence the DQ.

Due to a few complaints filed by townspeople in earlier years, we were already jeapordizing the privilege of racing on this gorgeous course (near the coast, dead flat across the cranberry bogs, and almost zero traffic), so the DQ made sense for that reason also.

Mr. Mike or anybody who did the Memphis in May Triathlon? Am I correct in saying that those people they caught drafting were DQed on the first offense? If so, this is the kind of deterent everyone is looking for.
MIM is the prototypical way a tri should be run. With 1400+ entrants, they do a time trial swim, pros 10 seconds apart, AGers, 3 seconds. This cuts down on the bike problems also.
Having no compassion on the drafters is also the way to go.

Bob Sigerson