"...and along with Steve Larson, who sits almost identically to Macca, ..."

That statement is entirely untrue. I've seen Larsen up close and personal on his bike, and he is out on the nose of his saddle. He's not in any kind of Lemond position. He's certainly farther out forward than Macca, whom I've also seen in person (on the roads up your way, Gary).

And, Macca's position is forward of a roadie position, too. It's not nearly as far back as Cobb's so-called big slam. Cobb is putting some people back behind 72 degrees. Macca's at about 76, I would guess.

"...and along with Steve Larson, who sits almost identically to Macca, ..."

That statement is entirely untrue. I've seen Larsen up close and personal on his bike, and he is out on the nose of his saddle. He's not in any kind of Lemond position. He's certainly farther out forward than Macca, whom I've also seen in person (on the roads up your way, Gary).

And, Macca's position is forward of a roadie position, too. It's not nearly as far back as Cobb's so-called big slam. Cobb is putting some people back behind 72 degrees. Macca's at about 76, I would guess.




that statement is from his website, how can his seat angle be 76 if his saddle is behing the bottom bracket on the Talon which has a 73.5 degree seat angle?

Another thought--Why does he wear that thing on his right wrist?

I'm looking at some recent Larson pics now and he looks quite a bit further forward than Macca to me. His hip angle looks similar but his back is flatter & the front of his body is lower which I assume means that he must be further forward or he'd be laying on his thighs. Heck, lately Larson looks like a FIST set-up to my untrained eye.

I'm guessing Macca is on the 52 Talon SL, with a 53.3 TT and a frame seat angle of 74.5. He's got a standard Xlab aero seatpost with a small bit of setback, not the Kestrel aero post. His seat is roughly slightly forward of mid-rail and he rides fairly full on the saddle, not so forward as some folks (like Larsen) unless he's really hammering, like in a 40k when he generally looks as if he's forward on the tip of the saddle. I'd guess that when all is said and done he's riding about 74-75 degrees for most of his IM riding. That's not slam by any definition. But it isn't forward. Larsen appears to ride with his Cervelo post in the rear position and the saddle well back on the rails. But he rides well forward on the saddle. I'd guess that means he's riding at 75-76 degrees for most of his IM riding. Neither one of them ride anywhere near the 78 deg standard.

Well, before Steve gets pegged as a disciple of [insert school of though/bike-fitter du jour HERE], I thought I should briefly chime in. Steve will be the first to tell you that he has no idea what "angle" he rides. He is senisitve to how far he sits behind the BB and the drop to his bars, but that is about it as number go. Occasionally a picture is taken where he is sitting forward, on the nose of his saddle, and this is held up to say "See, Larsen sits forward!" However, such pictures are not representative. If Steve is really hammering, he will creep forward, but by-and-large, he sits squarely on his saddle, a ways behind the BB. When I have heard him explain his position, he says it is pretty much just a traditional European road position.

>>Another thought--Why does he wear that thing on his right wrist? <<

What? The race bracelet?

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

And what is this other "thing" on the following photo - a wrist sponge?

Hairy Legs

Those are the lap markers for that particular race.

TriBriGuy,

ah...makes sense. Having never done an IM (nor 1/2IM until next month) I wondered how they handled that - I thought they would have set up a C-CHIP pad at the turnaround, but I guess the wrist thing is easier.

Hairy Legs

"I'd guess that means he's riding at 75-76 degrees for most of his IM riding. Neither one of them ride anywhere near the 78 deg standard."

i ride at 80 degrees. my guess is that larsen rides at the same relative body position as i do when he's going hard. i've seen lots of larsen photos of his position this year, and that's what it looks like to me. the only difference is, i sit squarely on my 80 degree saddle, larsen is forward on his shallower set up.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

>>ah...makes sense. Having never done an IM (nor 1/2IM until next month) I wondered how they handled that - I thought they would have set up a C-CHIP pad at the turnaround, but I guess the wrist thing is easier. <<

They do both.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Are you saying that you've seen him with his seatpost reversed in the forward position, Dan? I've yet to see a race photo where his saddle is mounted in the forward position. Not saying you're wrong, but I've never seen his saddle anthing but shoved back on the rear position. I think that it suffices to say that whatever his effective riding angle, he looks good and performs even better.

"Are you saying that you've seen him with his seatpost reversed in the forward position, Dan?"

there's probably a measure which ought to be considered, and that is the horizontal distance between the greater trochanter and the BB, while the rider is in his *actual*, not the "on the trainer," position.

consider ullrich's TT ride today. he spent a lot of time riding quite forward on the saddle, and would occasionally push himself back, only to almost immediately move forward again. those two "positions" were probably 4cm apart from each other in the horizontal plane. in ullrich's case, nothing on the bike changed. but the distance between his hips and the BB changed quite a lot.

so when i'm talking about larsen's position, it's that position in which he actually races, esp while riding on terrain in between 4% up and 4% down. i don't care how one's bike is set up when calculating a position. if the rider seeks to make that position more comfortable by moving the saddle under his sitzmark, fine. if he chooses not to, as mike pigg did for so many years, that's his choice. as regards biomechanics, however, your position is defined by where YOU are, not by where your bike's saddle is.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I absolutely understand what you said, Dan. I guess I am assuming (admittedly without actually breaking out gear and measuring it), that if Larsen sits as far forward as he appears to, but his saddle is so far back, that he's probably riding just about right over the centerline of the seatpost, which is 75deg on the Cervelo. To my unmeasured thinking, he'd have to be riding with the tip of the saddle right at his bunghole to hit 78deg, given the position of his saddle on relative to the seatpost centerline. Nobody rides that far forward on purpose. If he shoved his saddle all the way forward on the rails but post in the rearward position, I'd believe 78 degrees given where he actually sits on the saddle. But without a Cervelo in my stable, I'll have to wait till the next race or dealer I go to in order to get a better look.

the thing on his right wrist is a security tag, they are like a hospital bracelet and are used in Australia when you have to check your bike in the day before the race. You can't enter transition or remove your bike without this tag attached to your wrist which is checked by security personnel. Once the tag is attached it can only be removed by cutting it off.