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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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>>The all womens schools that I am familiar with, from secondary schools through universities are all private. Barnard, Wellesley, Vassar, etc. are all private universities and as such can selectively admit as they see fit. I am not upset I couldn't go there; I went to the college that I wanted to go to, no worries there. <<

So what is the difference between the private schools and a private company who puts on races?

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [trackie clm] [ In reply to ]
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Legally speaking? A private school can conduct their admittance affairs as they see fit. AFAIK. My impression is that even though the companies are privately owned they fall, along with their races, in the public domain and have to abide by the legal standards.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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I'll say up front I haven't read all of the posts, so I apologize straight up for that. However, I appreciate your interest in this matter--if nothing else it gives a platform for discussion. This is a potentially "hot" topic, and I will say that I respect others point of view, even if I can't see it from where I stand.

I wrote an article probably 10 or more years ago about Title Nine and sports. It essentially argued that it existed because it was needed in order to reset the balance in sports participation among females, and it was a matter of time and generations that would benefit from it. If you are a man, and white, you will likely not be able to see the level of imbalance in gender, race, and sexual orientation simply because of your station in life--even IF you are pluralistic in thought and interaction. This will apply to life in general and in sport. That is my opinion--and I am not an angry "feminist" per se...not that there is anything wrong with that either. There are plenty of studies that can support this notion of people being treated differently based on gender, age, race, etc.

Let's fast forward to the most recent news: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/...tion-does-not-p.html
Both women and gay people are NOT supported constitutionally for equal rights, and I do think that this is represented in our culture.

During the democratic primaries I thought that a black man had a better chance to be president than a white woman due to cultural bias. There were plenty of discussions on this specific matter, one of which I vividly recall on NPR. What does this have to do with women only races? ALOT!!!

I have never done a womens only race, and don't want to. I can see the merit in this tho. I once worked in a women's only gym, and honestly it served it's purpose at the time and now we don't really see them. Same thing with women only sections in regular gyms....not very many women in them now. However, it serves it's place in time now for many reasons.

Women (generally) have not been brought up to be sporting and physically tough or athletic. There is a significant gender inequality in society that reaches beyond sport to income and equal rights. (see ruling by Scalia) Women only races? If it promotes more women to participate while excluding men in that specific event, why not? There are not very many of these events compared to mixed gender races. It's not like women have all the rights as it is, and it's not creating an imbalance and an excess of women to men participation... Why would women want a race all to themselves? Perceptions about how men will treat them or interact with them? Likely. Is is valid? Likely.

Which makes me think of the time that a guy tried to run me off the road in a triathlon because I passed him. He chased me down and taunted me (screamed vulgarities at me) to the finish line.....because I was a girl. True story. When women have more constitutional rights than men, make up a majority of race participation, earn a greater income solely based on gender, etc. etc... then I will agree that they (we) should NOT have a race just for one gender. Until then, it's a race for a minority group of people who want an emotionally (at the least) safer environment to get their groove & sport on. I support it for now, but will prefer to pass the dudes who have women issues. ;~)

edited for typos....but I'm sure there are more!
Last edited by: LoriT: Jan 9, 11 21:00
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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original PV wrote:
Legally speaking? A private school can conduct their admittance affairs as they see fit. AFAIK. My impression is that even though the companies are privately owned they fall, along with their races, in the public domain and have to abide by the legal standards.

Please cite the pertinent statue that covers this.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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original PV wrote:
It seems like your opinion is one that many people hold. Its only my opinion that that's a bad thing, it seems many people believe its perfectly fine. I'm just interested in the process of finding where the line is and how people decide where to draw it. I just try and look at things as any amount of it is bad. I think more along the lines of 'it doesn't matter how small the infringement is' its the principle of a violation of rights that I see, even if no one is offended.

I sincerely wish you good luck with your incredibly naive, pedantic, self-righteous, impractical and extremist view here.

Except for bold sentence #1, which is poorly constructed and idiotic, you seem like a reasonably intelligent, logical person. It's sad to me that you don't see the merit in an all women's race, or with other cases of reverse discrimination that promote many people, and offend no one.
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [LoriT] [ In reply to ]
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Until then, it's a race for a minority group of people who want an emotionally (at the least) safer environment to get their groove & sport on. I support it for now, but will prefer to pass the dudes who have women issues. ;~)

Ditto.
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [npda] [ In reply to ]
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Poorly worded perhaps but it seems you got what I was trying to say. Look at it from a different viewpoint though. Consider the first amendment and the free speech that it guarantees. Even if you don't wish to voice what would be considered protected free speech, the Bill of Rights still protects your right to do so. So knowing (hypothetically of course) that you don't wish to make such a statement, would it be a violation of rights if they preempted your ability to do so?

If you didn't want to burn the flag, the constitution still protects your right to do so.
If you do want to burn the flag, the constitution protects the right to do so.

So if you don't want to burn the flag, should the constitution disallow it? Should that right not be protected?

You can call my viewpoint all the things you did and you very well might not be wrong in doing so; that doesn't however (in my opinion) make my viewpoint an illegitimate one.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [trackie clm] [ In reply to ]
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The only thing that I found in searching this is that no cases have gone to court regarding males entering female races; when challenged males have been granted admittance. If you know of others that I do not, in which the males were still barred from participating, I'll cede the argument.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [LoriT] [ In reply to ]
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I'll say up front I haven't read all of the posts, so I apologize straight up for that. However, I appreciate your interest in this matter--if nothing else it gives a platform for discussion. This is a potentially "hot" topic, and I will say that I respect others point of view, even if I can't see it from where I stand.
You're right there :) I knew coming in that some flak would be caught, but thats understandable.


I wrote an article probably 10 or more years ago about Title Nine and sports. It essentially argued that it existed because it was needed in order to reset the balance in sports participation among females, and it was a matter of time and generations that would benefit from it. If you are a man, and white, you will likely not be able to see the level of imbalance in gender, race, and sexual orientation simply because of your station in life--even IF you are pluralistic in thought and interaction. This will apply to life in general and in sport. That is my opinion--and I am not an angry "feminist" per se...not that there is anything wrong with that either. There are plenty of studies that can support this notion of people being treated differently based on gender, age, race, etc.
I completely agree here too, as much as one can try to view an issue through the eyes of another our past experiences jade that ability. Hence why I'm looking to you all :)

Women (generally) have not been brought up to be sporting and physically tough or athletic. There is a significant gender inequality in society that reaches beyond sport to income and equal rights. (see ruling by Scalia) Women only races? If it promotes more women to participate while excluding men in that specific event, why not? There are not very many of these events compared to mixed gender races. It's not like women have all the rights as it is, and it's not creating an imbalance and an excess of women to men participation... Why would women want a race all to themselves? Perceptions about how men will treat them or interact with them? Likely. Is is valid? Likely.
These things, I agree, are extremely important. A disparity in income based soley on ones sex is simply ludicrous. If a woman has as much merit in a job as a man she should recieve equal pay and employment opportunities.

Which makes me think of the time that a guy tried to run me off the road in a triathlon because I passed him. He chased me down and taunted me (screamed vulgarities at me) to the finish line.....because I was a girl. True story.
That guy sounds like an ass and gives male athletes a bad name. I've been chicked, geezered, dogged, et al. Why? Because they were faster than me lol! I've got no issues with that at all. Hey, if you are passing me, you've worked harder and deserve to reap the benefits.


When women have more constitutional rights than men, make up a majority of race participation, earn a greater income solely based on gender, etc. etc... then I will agree that they (we) should NOT have a race just for one gender. Until then, it's a race for a minority group of people who want an emotionally (at the least) safer environment to get their groove & sport on. I support it for now, but will prefer to pass the dudes who have women issues. ;~)

edited for typos....but I'm sure there are more!

I guess its here that I differ. For me the only thing sex should do is determine administratively who is ranked against who in regards to placing. I don't think men or women should be protected more than the other constitutionally; a 'sexless document' if you will. If we're ever on the same race course and you pass me (or more correctly "When" you pass me) wave and say hey, I'll cheer you on as you bike or run toward the line in front of me.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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Are gender specific schools sexist and discriminatory ,ie. all male catholic high schools?
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [squid] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, they are. As private institutions however they can set any admittion standards they want. Hence the reason I could not go to Mount Holyoke.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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races are privately own events
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [squid] [ In reply to ]
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Bars are privately owned as well but New Jersey state law has held that ladie's night promotions are illegal as they unfairly discriminate against men. It does not appear that any cases regarding races have gone to the court level yet. In Las Vegas however is another interesting case. Harrah's Casino held a Women's Only poker tournament and while men were discouraged from entering they were not barred from it after threats of lawsuits. It would seem that if legality were to hold up Disney, Nike, and Harrah's would have the legal team to prove that; none of them have gone that route however, all have allowed men to enter after discouragement in doing so.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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>>It would seem that if legality were to hold up Disney, Nike, and Harrah's would have the legal team to prove that<<

Or maybe they don't want to waste $$$$$$$ on it paying their lawyers on something like that.

And, if you are so hell-bent on this subject, why don't you try to enter a women's only even and see what happens. They're here, they're happening, they aren't illegal or someone would have shut them down (or no one but you cares?). Either enter one or quit harping on it.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
Last edited by: trackie clm: Jan 10, 11 13:15
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [trackie clm] [ In reply to ]
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I'll agree that's also possible.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [trackie clm] [ In reply to ]
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trackie clm wrote:
>>It would seem that if legality were to hold up Disney, Nike, and Harrah's would have the legal team to prove that<<

Or maybe they don't want to waste $$$$$$$ on it paying their lawyers on something like that.

And, if you are so hell-bent on this subject, why don't you try to enter a women's only even and see what happens. They're here, they're happening, they aren't illegal or someone would have shut them down (or no one but you cares?). Either enter one or quit harping on it.

I'll do as I see fit, thank you very much. You're now the arbiter of what should or shouldn't be discussed? Its not off topic from the original post, I've not been vulgar or profane. I fail to see the reason for all the animosity. You could just not harp on it with me and I can continue to discuss it with people that choose to; that's another option.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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No animosity, but don't see your point on continuing.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [trackie clm] [ In reply to ]
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After even MORE research, I was incorrect. Under the Sexual Discrimination Act of 1975 is the following:

Quote:
General exception for sport - s.44

It is not unlawful in relation to any sport, game or other activity of a competitive nature where the physical strength, stamina or physique of the average woman puts her at a disadvantage to the average man, to confine competitors to one sex. For example, it would not be unlawful for the Football Association to refuse to allow women to play in the men's football league. Case law has held that this exception also allows separate competitions for boys and girls. This exception would not apply to non-competitive sporting activity. See Sports for further information.

Argument ceded.

Run on alone ladies, I'll cheer for ya.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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original PV wrote:
Bars are privately owned as well but New Jersey state law has held that ladie's night promotions are illegal as they unfairly discriminate against men.

The guy or guys that sued to end that practice screwed themselves. Or more exactly, probably preventing themselves some screwing. Ladies' nights tend to exist to pack women into the clubs to attract more men/over-all crowds. A place full of women makes for a nice female to male ratio. Somebody decided to ruin that over some free drinks or admission?!?

As I got into tris last year, I got mad when I discovered some women only events. Basically I got peeved that the CLOSEST race to where I live excludes men. Well, poo.

I'm tempted to try to enter it next year. I already tend to race wearing pink nail polish. If I shave my legs I might almost fit in....

-eric
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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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sexism is all over this site, and most of the world in general. like the stupid phrase, getting chicked. i wrote an article about this phrase and sexism in sports and slang we use everyday, for a feminist zine.



TEAM GREEN
SWIM - CYCLE - RUN - VEGAN

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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [Ted Trendy] [ In reply to ]
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sexism is all over this site, and most of the world in general. like the stupid phrase, getting chicked. i wrote an article about this phrase and sexism in sports and slang we use everyday, for a feminist zine.


x2
Women get discriminated against at many races, often having to start in the last waves when tides in river or ocean swims change and they are at a distinct disadvantage starting last! That alone is a good reason for doing a womans only tri.
There is still SO much sexism and discrimination out there. Your use of the phrase "getting chicked" is totally offensive to me. The fascinating (and annoying) thing is that you are don't recognize your own sexism. It seems to me you are just being provocative.
YAWN.

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Re: Why does it seem like sexism is ok, so long as its one-sided? [Hotfly1] [ In reply to ]
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Hotfly1 wrote:
sexism is all over this site, and most of the world in general. like the stupid phrase, getting chicked. i wrote an article about this phrase and sexism in sports and slang we use everyday, for a feminist zine.



x2
Women get discriminated against at many races, often having to start in the last waves when tides in river or ocean swims change and they are at a distinct disadvantage starting last! That alone is a good reason for doing a womans only tri.
There is still SO much sexism and discrimination out there. Your use of the phrase "getting chicked" is totally offensive to me. The fascinating (and annoying) thing is that you are don't recognize your own sexism. It seems to me you are just being provocative.
YAWN.

was this directed at me? or were you just saying people who use that phrase?



TEAM GREEN
SWIM - CYCLE - RUN - VEGAN

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