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Climbing technique and bike set-up
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I live on the Texas coast with absolutely no elevation to speak of. I was in a triathlon this weekend with a series of hills and I got killed on the bike. I'm not very strong and am normally a nose-riding spinner, and when the bike points up my speed drops dramatically. I have a couple of more races with hills and I need to do something.

Right now I'm set up around 78 degrees, but I'm thinking about sliding my saddle back some, dropping it a few millimeters and shortening my stem to see if I can get some more power on the climbs (and not die after I get over the top so I can't even spin on the flats or descents). I'm figuring that what this position will benefit me on the climbs will more than compensate for what it hurts me on the flats.

Any comments or suggestions?

___________________________________



http://irondad06.blogspot.com/

http://irondad.blogspot.com/




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Re: Climbing technique and bike set-up [IronDad] [ In reply to ]
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Tom discussed this briefly in his article on how to ride a tri bike. Cliff notes were that you basically learn how to ride with higher RPM's. I believe he stated 90-100 when climbing on a steep bike.
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Re: Climbing technique and bike set-up [IronDad] [ In reply to ]
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I think Dan actually wrote the article about climbing on a tri bike. I learned a lot from Dan about this at the F.I.S.T. camp. First off, if you climb on your tri bike with road bike techniques it won't work as well. You need to adopt a climbing technique specific to triathlon geometry. The bonus is, this climbing technique actually works better than the road bike technique (i.e. it uses a lower heart rate, more restful, etc than standing). What I learned was, if you apply the road bike climbing paradigm to tri bikes you will have a problem. On a tri bike, climb like you should on a tri bike (higher cadence, forward, on the aerobars spinning with light pedal pressure and higher cadence)and on a road bike climb like you do on a road bike (slide back, hands on the tops, use the bike like a leg press machine). Two different techniques for two different sports: One for tirathlons one for road racing. Armstrong, interesitngly enough, seems to have adopted some of each of these techniques into his style- the high cadence and forward posture (even while standing) over the bottom bracket. Interesting.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Climbing technique and bike set-up [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with Tom on the benefits of spinning on a Tri bike to climb. However, sometimes I find that out of the saddle hammering on hills is appropriate in a tri. I think this is only a good idea if you're comfortable/strong on hills and the race is relatively short with rolling hills rather than long climbs. I'm only comfortable doing this on olympic distance races or shorter, and only on rolling hills that take under a minute to pop over. Stronger riders could obviously hammer on longer courses and/or bigger hills. The reason I think it is appropriate is that triathletes as a group tend to be awful on hills. You can pass a ton of people and put a lot of distance between them and you by being speedy up hills. Obviously, you want to keep these hard efforts short and not go so hard as to severly impact your run. My run is so awful on a good day that it's not much of an issue for me. I find interval workouts on the trainer with anything from 10 - 60 seconds is great for simulating riding on small rolling hills.
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Where should you feel it? [ In reply to ]
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I have been struggling with my cycling and recently made some changes regarding aerobars and seat position. Now when I climb in the seated position, it feels like the entire load is being carried by my gluts and a bit of the hamstrings. I seem to be a bit slower and spend more time out of the saddle to try and compensate. I'm trying to find out if the muscle action should be more toward the gluts/hams and if I'm just not used to it yet or if I'm totally jacked around with my position?

Thanks in advance,

Tim
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Re: Climbing technique and bike set-up [IronDad] [ In reply to ]
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You can always practice your hill climbing at home on the trainer. (I know....riding the trainer sucks...such is life). Instead of one phone book under the front wheel, use two, or better yet, something more sturdy, but enough to jack the frame up to a sufficient incline angle. Play around with your gearing and rpm's, and find out what works best for you.


"The more you sweat today, the less you bleed tomorrow"
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Re: Climbing technique and bike set-up [IronDad] [ In reply to ]
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Living in a flat area the trainer with a phone book (or two depending on the size) under the front wheel is the best way. There is really no reason to change position.

Good pedaling efficiency is critical on climbs since the lack of momentum doesn't let you cheat through the weak spots of your pedal stroke. If you don't have a computrainer or similar, deflate the tire some on the trainer so the resistance kills the flywheel effect and makes you work all the way around. Start out slow cadence/ higher gears to reteach your muscles how to pedal and work up to 90-95 rpm.

Then get your weight down to 57kg and add a 450 watt motor - you will be a great climber guaranteed. ;-)
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Re: Climbing technique and bike set-up [IronDad] [ In reply to ]
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Robert,

I have the opposite problem as you: I live in Colorado and can hardly leave my house without getting 1000 feet of elevation. My $.02 says this is more of a gearing and power (weight) issue than technique and setup.

I weight close to 200# and dropped hard by 100# women. If you are heavy, there's no way around the fact that you are moving X pounds of bulk up a hill.

Gearing: my tri-climbing gear is 39x25. Expect climbing to be tough with a "flatlander" cassette., such as an 11-21.

I'll go from 250 Watts @ 20+mph in the flats to 450-500W @ 12mph when climbing, say 6% grades (big guesstimate). Whether I can maintain the speed and spin, or have to stand and hammer, I'm still putting out a lot of power. My choices to climb faster: get stronger or lose weight. My choice to climb easier / slower: lower cadence to 60rpm (or less) or gearing down... 39x27 (my road bike), or a triple (30x25 or 27), or I've seen XTR (12?-34) cassettes on road bikes for the Triple Bypass (10k+ feet elevation).

To build power without hills to climb, increase your training speed, such as higher speed intervals. Into the wind for more resistance is a bonus in training. :)

(Mo) Joe
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Re: Climbing technique and bike set-up [IronDad] [ In reply to ]
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The absolute best way to climb is to spin up the hills in a nice cadence 90-110 rpm if possible. On an average hill 4-6%and about 1 mile long figure being in the 39-19 or 39-21 or 39-23 gears. You may be a bit slower but you be fresher at the top and really be able to hammer since your recovery will be minimal. The farther back on the saddle you are the more hams and gluts you'll use. The more foward you are you'll probably use your quads. If you want to climb out of the saddle remeber to rock the bike back and forth under you rather than you moving from side to side. Let gravity help you climb by just transfering your weight from pedal to pedal. My old cycling coach said that you can save around 25% of your energy doing this. Take a look at how Marco Pantani and Richard Virenque climb when they are out of the saddle.

"Strategy? The strategy was in the preparation" - Lance Armstrong after winning 2000 TDF
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Re: Climbing technique and bike set-up [Rusty D] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for all the advice. I needed some quick fixes because my hilly races are all in the next 30 days.

Some mistakes I know I made in my race were: using my 11-21 cassette; saddle too far forward because even sitting at the back of my saddle my quads were burning in the climbs; using a woman's Terry Butterfly (because I lent out my Azoto Tri) and still aching in my inner thighs three days later because the saddle was too wide and when I sat on the back of it, it pushed into my thighs (killed my run too).

I'm going to start those trainer drills.

___________________________________



http://irondad06.blogspot.com/

http://irondad.blogspot.com/




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Re: Climbing technique and bike set-up [IronDad] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure some of your answer lies in your race strategy on the bike. Even the most disciplined rider will tend to spike their watts at the base of a hill, even when trying not to. I understood the principle instinctively and tried to ride appropriately. But it wasn't until I recently got a power meter that I saw that I still tended to spike a bit on hills. Now that I'm on a powermeter I can ride more steadily (from a power output standpoint) than I used to. From a practical perspective, this means that TT and tri racing usually goes like this: At the base of hills I may gap a bit off the back of the "hard" riders especially in the beginning, but as the hill progresses, I hold steady, and as I hit the crest I'm usually pulling even. As we crest, I'm still well within my zone and tend to ride off the front of the "hard" riders who have blown themselves early getting up the hill. Even with an HR monitor They'll usually kill themselves to stay with me, spiking their watts once again. As the races progress in length, all that spiking tends to climb on the "hard" riders backs. Toward the end of the bike leg or race they are dropping off like flies.

Without a powermeter the best you can do is be disciplined in the hills. Don't take the "ride hard into the hill and try to maintain to the top" approach. Develop your RPE sensitivity to the point that you can ride a steady effort. Don't worry about slowing down a bit up the hill. If you don't blow yourself going up, you'll be able to ride steady over the crest and down the hill. That produces a faster overall speed than trying to maintain speed up the hill and then having to pedal easy on the downhill.
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Re: Climbing technique and bike set-up [IronDad] [ In reply to ]
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"Some mistakes I know I made in my race were: using my 11-21 cassette"

i race with 39X53 and 12-27. i believe monty and i had the two fastest bike splits in our AG in wildflower, and we were probably the most "undergeared" of just about anyone in the first half of our AG. i rode in my 27t quite a lot. i rarely miss having an 11t, but i'd sorely miss my 27t in a lot of races. stay in the aero position and just spin baby. you'll ride faster, you'll run faster.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Climbing technique and bike set-up [not a PCer] [ In reply to ]
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Nope. You're correct, of course. That isn't what I meant. What I said was that you shouldn't spike your wattage. Lets say you are clipping along at about 200W avg in your IM effort. Most riders will hit a hill and tend to spike their power up above 400W. That's no good. A moderate increase in power, up to your CP30 (lets say its 300W) is a much more reasonable ride. You'll maintain good momentum up the hill, but won't blow and will be able to crest and power away while the guy who pushed 400 for half the hill has to soft pedal. But you're right. 200W steady is not the same.
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Re: Climbing technique and bike set-up [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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THank you for writing your "How to Ride a Tri Bike" article recently Dan-- You sold me on the "spin-up-the-hills" concept. I raced Galena, IL last weekend and I took your advice and put on a 12-25 (Actually, I know your advice would have been a 12-27, but I figured it's Illinois, how hilly could it be?) Well, lets just say that there are a lot of real hills in that part of the state; that course is all up and down, very little flat. I was able to stay in the aero position and spin up hills that almost everyone else was standing up for or grinding with a very low cadence.

Regardless, even though several people powered by me on the decents, I went right by them at the next climb and ended up with a decent (for me) bike split that was most certainly better than it would have been. I only wish I had used the 27, as there were a couple hills where I could have used it.

THanks again,

Barry K.
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"How to ride a tri-bike" [ In reply to ]
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Where can I find a copy of this article?

Thanks,

-Adam :-)
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Re: "How to ride a tri-bike" [mrcurtain] [ In reply to ]
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Adam:

It's actually part of Dan's new series on Tri Bike fit, here is the link to that part of it.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...or-TRI-SPECIFIC-3800
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Re: Climbing technique and bike set-up [Rusty D] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The absolute best way to climb is to spin up the hills in a nice cadence 90-110 rpm if possible. On an average hill 4-6%and about 1 mile long figure being in the 39-19 or 39-21 or 39-23 gears.


Those still seem like big gears to me - if you're spinning 90-110 rpm in a 39-19, 39-21, 39-23 - how fast are you going? I'd guess about 16-20 mph which seems really fast for a 1 mile climb at 4-6%. How fast do the faster triathletes climb 4-6% 1 mile climbs roughly?

I try to spin 95-110 on the flats and about 85-90 on hills - but I'm not very fast, good, or experienced - but I do live by lots of hills.....I find it hard to stay in the aero position on hills if my cadence drops below 80.
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Re: Climbing technique and bike set-up [not a PCer] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To
Develop your RPE sensitivity to the point that you can ride a steady effort. Don't worry about slowing down a bit up the hill. If you don't blow yourself going up, you'll be able to ride steady over the crest and down the hill. That produces a faster overall speed than trying to maintain speed up the hill and then having to pedal easy on the downhill.[/reply]

Not a PCer wrote: Not for the same average power it doesn't.

He's absolutely correct. You will be faster over all by generating more power to keep from going slow up the hills. The longer you go slow, the slower your average speed, and since the clock is ticking, the faster you have to go on the downhill to make up for all the time on the uphill. Plus, the air resistance on the downhill can eat up lots of watts if you are pedalling at 38 mph trying to maintain your 200 watt output. You'll be better off to use some extra watts going up, and recover with a good tuck on the backside of the hill (after gaining your speed first!) I'm actually faster on rolling hill time trials than on flats using this technique.

PS, nice to have you back, we've missed you lately!



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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