Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

War in Iraq. Are we losing?
Quote | Reply
Came across this article and wondered how many ST's share the same view? I am not sure I understand some of his thoughts. First why should we (the U.S) pay reparations? I think we have done a pretty good job of rebuilding the infrastructure. Everything from schools to hospitals to water treatment plants. Of course we do not see much of that reported. Alot was destroyed and yes it will take time to completely rebuild but we are committed to finishing the job. We just can't give up and say OK sorry we are defeated and go home. As for allowing "international institutions" to aid in creating a truly soverign Iraq thats nothing more than a code for France, Germany and Russia. The fact is there is an International coalition involved in rebuilding Iraq and contracts are being awrded (and righfully so) to those who supported and continue to support us. I am sorry but it does not make sense for anyone who didn't and still doesn't help to be awarded some contract.



Anyway here is the article. Flame away.



Bob



The upside to losing Iraq? An empire falls

Robert Jensen, LOCAL CONTRIBUTOR Friday, December 03, 2004

The United States has lost the war in Iraq, and that's a good thing.

I don't mean that the loss of American and Iraqi lives is to be celebrated. The death and destruction are numbingly tragic, and the suffering in Iraq is hard for most of us in the United States to comprehend. The tragedy is compounded because these deaths haven't protected Americans or brought freedom to Iraqis — they have come in the quest to extend the American empire in this so-called "new American century."

So, as a U.S. citizen, I welcome the U.S. defeat, for a simple reason: It isn't the defeat of the United States — its people or their ideals — but of that empire. And it's essential the American empire be defeated and dismantled.

The fact the Bush administration says we are fighting for freedom and democracy (having long ago abandoned fictions about weapons of mass destruction and terrorist ties) does not make it so. We must look at the reality, no matter how painful. The people of Iraq are better off without Saddam Hussein's despised regime, but that does not prove our benevolent intentions nor guarantee the United States will work to bring meaningful democracy to Iraq.

Throughout history, our support for democracies has depended on their support for U.S. policy. When democratic governments follow an independent course, they typically end up as targets of U.S. power, military or economic. Ask Venezuela's Hugo Chavez or Haiti's Jean-Bertrand Aristide.

In Iraq, the Bush administration invaded not to liberate but to extend and deepen U.S. domination. When Bush says, "We have no territorial ambitions; we don't seek an empire," he tells a half-truth. The United States doesn't want to absorb Iraq nor take direct possession of its oil. That's not the way of empire today — it's about control over the flow of oil and oil profits, not ownership.

In a world that runs on oil, the nation that controls the flow of oil has great strategic power. U.S. policymakers want leverage over the economies of its competitors — Western Europe, Japan and China — which are more dependent on Middle Eastern oil. Hence the longstanding U.S. policy of support for reactionary regimes (Saudi Arabia), dictatorships (Iran under the Shah) and regional military surrogates (Israel), aimed at maintaining control.

The Bush administration has invested money and lives in making Iraq a platform from which the United States can project power — from permanent U.S. bases, officials hope. That requires not the liberation of Iraq, but its subordination. But most Iraqis don't want to be subordinated, which is why the United States in some sense lost the war the day it invaded. One lesson of contemporary history is that occupying armies generate resistance that, inevitably, prevails over imperial power.

Most Iraqis are glad Saddam is gone, and most want the United States gone. When we admit defeat and pull out — not if, but when — the fate of Iraqis depends in part on whether the United States (1) makes good on legal and moral obligations to pay reparations, and (2) allows international institutions to aid in creating a truly sovereign Iraq.

We shouldn't expect politicians to do either without pressure. An anti-empire movement — the joining of antiwar forces with the movement to reject corporate globalization — must create that pressure. Failure will add to the suffering in Iraq and more clearly mark the United States as a rogue state and an impediment to a just and peaceful world.

So, I'm glad for the U.S. military defeat in Iraq, but with no joy in my heart. We should all carry a profound sense of sadness at where decisions made by U.S. policy-makers — not just the gang in power today, but a string of Republican and Democratic administrations — have left us and the Iraqis. But that sadness should not keep us from pursuing the most courageous act of citizenship in the United States today: Pledging to dismantle the American empire.

This planet's resources do not belong to the United States. The century is not America's. We own neither the world nor time. And if we don't give up the quest — if we don't find our place in the world instead of on top of the world — there is little hope for a safe, sane and sustainable future.

Jensen is a journalism professor at the University of Texas at Austin and the author of "Citizens of the Empire: The Struggle to Claim Our Humanity." He can be reached at rjensen@uts.cc.utexas.edu.
Last edited by: armytriguy: Dec 16, 04 7:44
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dude you're starting to sound like a one-trick pony....

A fellow O-4
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Americans as a whole do not understand military actions- including war. That's a good thing. In order to understand you have to be living in a very scary place. A place where occupying armies march in the streets of your hometown, or you live in constant fear of bombing raids, or coastline invasions. You have to know what it's like to be ruled by a government who kills millions because they worship a different god or have the wrong skin color. Or simply because killing them is easier than having to deal with them alive.

Until this country is invaded or routinely attacked you will continue to hear from people like this who have no idea what is being gained through military action, and have no idea how those actions are to be conducted.

Most people don't know how the military works, and I don't want them to know. Because for them to understand, this country will have to suffer a great deal.

Better they write their articles of pity and sorrow, better they question the shooting of a uniformless terrorist, fighting out of a Mosque, who pretended to be dead (that's three war crimes) just long enough to maybe take out a few more Americans.

Let em bitch. The cost for them to understand is too great.

"Nobody gets out of here alive."
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This is such a poorly informed, myopic, short sighted editorial written by a person who, based on the views expressed in the editorial, does not have a broad based or ecclectic education in international affairs.

I would suggest that, based on the tenor of his writing, he has never been to the Middle East or Southwest Asia.

Also, this is one of those dimwits duped into believing "this war is for oil". Come on people, that is a snow job. Our administration are better business people than to go to war for oil. There are simply much cheaper, quicker, more digestible ways to get it.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
Quote Reply
Post deleted by Casey [ In reply to ]
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [rgr195] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sorry but things like the Hottie Thread and some of the other mindless topics on here do not interest me. As an OR for the tri team and with all of my tri friends here I get plenty of "tri related" conversation. I enjoy politcal bantering. The problem is from my fox hole those around me seem to share simialar viewpoints as mine, which is what you'd expect in a military environment. I throw out some of these topics to try and devolp an understanding of why people opposed to the war are opposed. This forum is only one tiny part of my life but one I value for getting to better understand others.
Last edited by: armytriguy: Dec 16, 04 9:22
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
-- So, I'm glad for the U.S. military defeat in Iraq, but with no joy in my heart. We should all carry a profound sense of sadness at where decisions made by U.S. policy-makers — not just the gang in power today, but a string of Republican and Democratic administrations — have left us and the Iraqis. But that sadness should not keep us from pursuing the most courageous act of citizenship in the United States today: Pledging to dismantle the American empire.


I agree with this, and I would add that we Americans need to take responsibility for the decisions our policy-makers made. We put them into office and then we sat on our asses and watched them do this.
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think we have done a pretty good job of rebuilding the infrastructure. Everything from schools to hospitals to water treatment plants. Of course we do not see much of that reported.

I see/hear this type of statement a lot. I have no idea whether or not it is true, but if it is, why doesn't Fox News report on it all the time? I go to the Fox News website or catch a little of the coverage late at night on Fox News and I never see these feel good stories reported. Isn't Fox supposed to bring out what is "really" happening in Iraq w/o any bias?

We just can't give up and say OK sorry we are defeated and go home.

Why? When will we accomplish our objective and implement our exit strategy?

The fact is there is an International coalition involved in rebuilding Iraq and contracts are being awrded (and righfully so) to those who supported and continue to support us.

I would question whether isolationism is the best approach to the solving the problems we face with the radical islamic "fundamentalists". It's just not really a well-proven doctrine.


_________
kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [GJS] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My point exactly. Even Fox news carries little of the "good news" story. There is another thread here posted by Big Kahuna titled "some more photos from Iraq." If you haven't seen it check it out. That discussion thread talked about this very topic.
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [Casey] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Until the citizens of Iraq unite and put a stop to their fellow insurgent brethren who are waging terrorist battles against the coalition Army and Iraqi police this sort of destruction will continue. It's an unfortunate byproduct of this war.

When are the citizens of Iraq going to start taking ownership of their country? Until they step up to the plate we'll continue to do our best but sooner or later they'll have to put some work into rebuilding and taking control of their country.
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
-- When are the citizens of Iraq going to start taking ownership of their country?

When we leave, and bullets stop whizzing over their heads.
Last edited by: TTTorso: Dec 16, 04 15:08
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [TTTorso] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm afraid if we leave there will be more bullets flying over their heads then there are now and anarchy will reign.
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [TTTorso] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Those are the bullets of their fellow countrymen, the insurgents. Not of the coalition.
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [TTTorso] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You think? I have three books on my desk right now that say they haven't done it in 4,000 years. Literally.

The place has been an abyssmal C.F. for 40 centuries.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The following is a quote from an email which I received today from a friend who is stationed in Taji with th US Army ...

“I met with my new friends this morning. I'm working with x Company of the x Battalion. Great men! Very eager to learn, especially to learn English! They want to be just like me. (American Soldier) It's going to be quite a responsibility. Now I truly know why I am here. I'm a sucker for making relationships with brave men who fight for freedom. I'm going back in an hour to work with them some more. After speaking with some of them and walking around their barracks, it's amazing how they do what they need. Their lives are in danger when they go home. Conditions they live in and the supplies they have are spartan. 4-5 men share 1 bar of soap! Needless to say, I want to help them. I must be careful. If I give too much they will come to expect it. Maybe friends can start collecting bars of soap, socks, etc. I would like to give them something at least once. I'll have a better idea after a couple of days."



The situation does not seem as bleak to me as some are making it out to be. I think that history will ultimately look favorably upon our efforts in Iraq.
Last edited by: mike419: Dec 16, 04 18:20
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [mike419] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks Mike. Great story.
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
-- Those are the bullets of their fellow countrymen, the insurgents. Not of the coalition.

Who are they shooting at?
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [TTTorso] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Beats me as to why they're blowing up things, killing their fellow countrymen, and destroying their own cities. We're trying to put their country together and host elections.
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I see the military portions of the Iraq war as having a lot of similarities with the US Civil war. (feel free to flame just read the whole thing first)

The insurgents are fighting a better equipped/financed and more industrialized army.

Like the south the insurgents are fighting a defensive war. Meaning US troops must hunt down and kill all of the insurgents (without any casualties) to be considered successful. The insurgents win by not losing. If we leave they also win. Their success is not tied to defeat of any particular enemy but by survival.

The insurgents have a number of experience leader (much like the West Point Grads returning to the South). The junior officers during the Iran-Iraq war and Gulf War I who were dismissed when the army was disbanded went somewhere. There is a lot of battlefield experience in that group. This isn't a slight to US commanders but the US hasn't been in a extended shooting war so the officers that are now in command have a lower level of experience (no shooting war when they were junior officers). The exceptions to this are the veterans from Afganistan (mostly junior officers and the US has the Special Forces experience due to all of the operations in the 90's).
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
-- Beats me as to why they're blowing up things, killing their fellow countrymen, and destroying their own cities. We're trying to put their country together and host elections.


I think its fairly obvious they don't want us there (enough to try very hard to kill us).
Quote Reply
Re: War in Iraq. Are we losing? [TTTorso] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
-- Beats me as to why they're blowing up things, killing their fellow countrymen, and destroying their own cities. We're trying to put their country together and host elections.


I think its fairly obvious they don't want us there (enough to try very hard to kill us).


We don't want to be there any longer than we need to...so they need to let us get our job done for them, hand over the keys, and we'll be out of there as quickly as we were in...

All they need to do is to stop their hostilities and let the mission go forward. Until then this unfortunately will continue.
Quote Reply