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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [doubleplay] [ In reply to ]
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More power to anyone who is going for more than one Ironman for year but can somebody explain me what the point is?
Specially if you are not a pro and stand no chance to qualify for Hawai (like myself).
Also you can not even compare your times from one course to another or even from one year to next on the same course because of the outside factors.


Odd way of looking at things. By your standard what is the point in racing at all? ;)

I am racing IMLP because I love the area, some family can be there and it looks like an awesome course. I am doing IMC because it is an awesome race in a great town that is just down the road. I won't qualify for Kona (unless there is a bout of food poisining in the 100 or so guys that will finish ahead of me in the 40-44 AG), but I will enjoy the experience. You kinda make it sound like the race is a chore ...

===============
#ITMFA
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [CaptainCanada] [ In reply to ]
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More power to anyone who is going for more than one Ironman for year but can somebody explain me what the point is?
Specially if you are not a pro and stand no chance to qualify for Hawai (like myself).
Also you can not even compare your times from one course to another or even from one year to next on the same course because of the outside factors.

Odd way of looking at things. By your standard what is the point in racing at all? ;)

I am racing IMLP because I love the area, some family can be there and it looks like an awesome course. I am doing IMC because it is an awesome race in a great town that is just down the road. I won't qualify for Kona (unless there is a bout of food poisining in the 100 or so guys that will finish ahead of me in the 40-44 AG), but I will enjoy the experience. You kinda make it sound like the race is a chore ...
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It is not an odd way, it is my way. It can be odd to you but as I posted in this thread "whatever floats your boat". I wish you best of luck.
I can go out and finish an Ironman tomorrow under the time limit but it loses it luster after you finish a couple. I don't train to race I train because I enjoy it and it keeps me healthy(hopefully). The way some people approaches racing is not the way I approach it. Simply finishing does not mean anything to me besides I have better things to do then to train all year long to finish couple Ironmans

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I see obsessed people.
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [terencejk05] [ In reply to ]
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I'm still waiting for someone to qualify for Kona, Xterra Worlds and Ultraman in the same year, then pull off the mother of all triples. Don't believe that has been done.

Healthy? If you have to ask.........

In the Ultra running community a popular challenge is the "Grand Slam". Four 100's in one year: Western States in June, Vermont in July, Leadville in Aug. and Wasatch in Sep. It's done by about a dozen folks every year. Then you have freaks of nature like Karl Meltzer who WIN about 6-8 100's every year and place in 2 or 3 more. Every year, year in and year out.

Monica Scholtz of Ontario, Canada has done as many as 20 100's in a single year on more than one occasion. Hans Dieter-Weisbauer (Ger.) has done over two DOZEN 100's in a single year more than once. And he's late 60's!!!!!

Another example of this sort of thing is the "Badwater Cup". Badwater 135 mile run in July, then Furnace Creek 508 bike TT in Oct. More than a handful have done it.

Then we have Petr Vabrousek, dozen or more IM's in a single year for the last decade.

So multiple IM's is really not a big deal. It may be financially, but not physically for the committed.
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [terencejk05] [ In reply to ]
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In 2000 at 45 years old, Joe Bonness did 5 Ironman races. He won his age group at all, exc Kona were he took 3rd. Times varried from 9:17 to 9:58. He did Kona, Great Floridian one week later, followed by IMFl in two weeks. He negative split all three races.

In 2001 he did 4 IM. Kona,followed by GFT and IMFL in a 3 week span and won AG all three and GFT overall.

In 2007 at 52 years old he did IM IM WI, IM Kona, GFT and IMFL won the age group in all 4 and an OA win at GFT. Each under 10 hours.

Yes, you can do more than 1 IM a year and more than "just finish". No, it is not 'healthy". Yes, I am a big fat bragger. :-)


Support Crew
This information contained herein has been assembled for your assistance and convenience. It is believed to be reliable, however, its accuracy cannot be guaranteed. All opinions shown are subject to change without notice.
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [support crew] [ In reply to ]
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We all know Joe's not going to toot his own horn, so someone has too! He's lucky to have such a devoted wife and "support crew" Sue!

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My business-eBodyboarding.com
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [pdxjohn] [ In reply to ]
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While doing 2 IMs in a year is not a huge deal, I think we are all lab rats in a massive science experiment and will only see the impact of all of this in 30 years. I don't think the actual IMs themselves are what gets to us. The event itself is no big deal. I think that the "IM training grind" with the week over week mileage and fatigue, especially the long draining rides and runs (often in back to back combinations over 2 days) is what will add up and deliver the knock out punch. Let's not forget all the lost productivity around us in day to day lives while we drag our bodies around in a semi perpetual state of IM training induced fatigue.

We're not all Joe, Hillary Biscay or Petr VanBrousek (sp?)

So while I don't think mulitple IMs in a year is really a big deal (especially if you do 2 IMs off the training for one when they are spaced 3-5 weeks apart), I think multiple IM training builds are counterproductive to "normal living". Olympic and half IM training leaves a lot more energy for other stuff. I've personally found that you can do a reasonably good IM off the training for half IM, suffering it out a bit on race day, and likely going no more than 10 min slower with a slight slowdown on the run....best of both worlds.

I've done 18 IMs (twice 2x per year, the rest single), and I do enjoy the actual event. The long training, not even the volume, but the blocks that suck up 4-7 hours is what I don't really like. I'd rather that most workouts be done in 3 hours or less....preferably around 1 hour.

Dev
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
We're not all Joe, Hillary Biscay or Petr VanBrousek (sp?)


Absolutely! In Joe's case I tell him, "can you imagine if you had a twin brother? You would kill yoursleves trying to out-do each other". ;-) Ability to do multiple IM depends on a lot of things, finances and time included.

Joe as always said he felt like a lab rat. It was an experiment on what the long term effect of racing multiple IM would be. Remember although he is not as fast as the Pros, he is going all out at every event, not "just finishing". (not that there is anythng wrong with it) Many of you know he is now prone to Afib. It is hard to say if this was genetic or triggered by the training/racing. He is also quite lucky to have survived all these years without serious injury. This could be be due to smart training as well, though.

I know Paula, Ken Glah and Scott Tinley all did multiple IM. Paula, I believe, once won on consecutive weekends. Scott claims it ruined him, Ken is still racing a couple IM a year. Everyone may have different results, but it is certainly doable.


Support Crew
This information contained herein has been assembled for your assistance and convenience. It is believed to be reliable, however, its accuracy cannot be guaranteed. All opinions shown are subject to change without notice.
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev, I agree with you on all points here. I'm not saying this is healthy behavior, just more doable than most believe. I have been racing Endurance events since 1976. Not to toot my horn, but put my "experiment of one" out there. I've done 42 Ultramarathons, and 46 Marathons, including 12 IM's. I can tell you that I have "aged" legs and now have a narrow tolerance for overreached training bouts. Noakes (Lore of Running) has done some interesting theorizing on this concept of a "well of adaptive energy". Speculating that we do have a well, and it is not ulimited. On the other hand, I think you can work with this condition and still compete, just need to accept the inevitable limits this life long behavior may have placed on the body. Joe and others have proven that it's possible for a few rare and gifted to pull off multiple endurance events year in and year out without too much consequence. As we move ahead I think there will much a much larger population of "goof balls" like me that can't seem to get it out of their system from which to observe the long term effects of such activites. I agree with you, that as I get in to my mid 50's a lower overall volume and higher quality regimen is more agreeable. I also feel changing the type of training and events one does from season to season, encourages a "confusion" that the body picks up on, enhancing adaptive energy. No real scientific evidence here, just seat of the pants speculation.
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [mjcrna] [ In reply to ]
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I have more problems to recover fast from a stand alone marathon then from an IM. Some others have the same. You might be different.
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [big slow mover] [ In reply to ]
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all out stand alone marathon is tougher then an IM. You need more recovery from it.

Some marathoners do more then 2 marathons per year as well. It can be done.


My PR marathon came 2 weeks after my first 50-miler. I still can't believe I pr-ed yet I can't put together a better race with taper and specific training.

I did CdA and Cozumel in the same year. The problem for me is not recovery, but bike burnout. After CdA I barely biked. My running and swimming were normal, but I could not get back in the saddle. That was my 2nd attempt to do 2 in one year and at least this time I finished both vs. DNF after loop 1 of the run at the Great Illini Full(no longer has a full).

I agree with a stand-alone marathon being harder than IM.


Swim - Bike - Run the rest is just clothing changes.
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [mjcrna] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. If you're going to do 2 in a season, 5 weeks is probably perfect.

I did 3 in 13 months and pretty much wanted to shoot myself a couple months out from the 3rd. It was almost 2 years of high level training and it took a year of more relaxed 1/2 IM stuff to bring back the love. I would never do that to my body, or mind, again.

Ultimately, it comes down to your approach to the races and what your goals are. As well as what kind of away from tri life you have.

It is always good to recognize that serious IM training and racing are quite a bit beyond what is good for anyone. I choose to do it, but no longer try to convince myself that the costs don't outweigh the benefits, at least health-wise.

G


It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [gleveq] [ In reply to ]
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I usually do a marathon plus (2) 1/2 IM's, (2) IM's and 5 or so shorter races a year. I am very lucky in that my wife does alot of the same races and we spend alot of training time together. I do agree that it is not for everyone. Is it healthy, who knows. Do we love the lifestyle, without a doubt.
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [terencejk05] [ In reply to ]
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I was watching IMFL on Universal Sports last night. One of the athletes had done 3 Ironman distance races already this year (including IMKY and IMWI in back-to-back weeks). This cannot be healthy.


Professional marathoners run at most 2 marathons a year.

I agree. It's less than optimal and perhaps not the best from a health perspective - this is true for the AG athlete or the Elite.

The comparison to world-class marathon runners is a good one. However, as someone else noted, for some Pros this is how they make their living and for some top AG athletes, they need to now do at least 2 IM races a year to qualify for IMH. So their is no easy solution here.

I will note that some of the absolute best at the IM distance these days( Alexander et al) have minimized the number of IM races that they do in a year. Now I know people will start saying - What about Chrissie or some of these others? I say these people are recovery freaks and are somehow able to pull themselves out of the hole you get into after an IM very quickly - much more quickly than average. That's the difference with them and in no way should rank-and-file athletes follow what they do in this regard.




Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [gleveq] [ In reply to ]
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General reply to this thread:
  • Gleveq and I are generally in agreement on a lot of things and I think it really takes some time after you have gotten over the "I'm not invincible stage" to realize that the well is only so deep. I think all of us have gone through periods when we're on such a good run that we convince ourselves that what we are doing to ourselves has minimal impact.
  • In response to Support Crew, 2 things I'd like to point out. Racing IM's in relatively tourist mode vs racing them all out has a huge impact on the next few weeks or next few months. What's interesting for me, is that the diff between "toursit mode" and "all out" is likely no more than 5-10 minutes of delta on race day, and they come from trying to run 30 second per mile faster over say 20 miles (10 minutes). The diff is huge, in effort, but the impact on final time is not that huge (the only diff is it might not mean a PB or Kona qual)...but for most people 10 minutes is in the noise
  • If you race in tourist mode (so to speak) the impact of the multiple Ironmans (the actual races) is not that bad. As I mentioned elsewhere in the thread its is the day in day out overload grind of the IM training. I'd concurr with Gleveq (she said when she did 3 in 13 months it was "shoot me" time. I found doing IMLP+IMC 5 weeks apart much easier than doing IMLP + Kona. My head nearly blew apart trying to do the Kona training cause I had to ramp for another build while managing family, work pressure and training in the dark and cold...in the end, I just threw in the towel on the second IM build, and just did 2 "long weeks" and otherwise did training more like OLympic/half IM training (and did a PB in Kona....go figure).
  • To Pdxjohn, I completely agree about trying to "confuse your body" with a variety of training. After Clearwater, I told Scot....next month is time to hit the weight room and lift lots of heavy stuff....not cause it will make me fast, but I need to drive some other energy systems in my body so it morphs in a different way for a few weeks/months. Now I am XC ski racing and doing lots of short and hard stuff....if nothing else the variety keeps it exciting. Saturday was a 10K XC ski race that took me 31.02...that was full out redline on a technical course where I was not exclusively limited by engine, but also by balance, coordination, timing and neural processing of rut and trees coming at me on downhills at 50+ kph trying to stay up :-)
  • Anyway, the full impact of what we are doing is not known. What I do know is that I can look at many 60-70 year old bikers and skiers and they look a lot more healthy than life long marathon runners. I'm not waiting for a scientific study to tell me that too much really long running (long runs and mileage) is perhaps not ideal in the long run. I'm 44 now and on the balance am doing pretty good for my age....I don't want to mess with a good thing with too much really long training and racing. 4 weeks a year of long bikes and higher run mileage is fine....but doing it many months per year, the impact is not completely known. Some handle it better than others.
  • But worst of all, the long training drags me out life in general, and frankly its not really worth it. My productivity and emotional well being get affected with too much long stuff. I seem to response better to many shorter burst of high intensity where I don't have to deplete my glycogen stores and rely on "in workout nutrition"

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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [pdxjohn] [ In reply to ]
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Speculating that we do have a well, and it is not unlimited.

If we are talking about serious training at the upper-end of the training load spectrum and competing at the elite/pro level in an endurance sport, I would tend to agree with Noake's assessment.

I was at a gathering recently with many of the top distance runners in Canada - from 25 years ago. Some of these guys were Olympic Team Members, National champions and record holders. I note that none are actively running these days and everyone seemed to have an assortment of physical problems.

Many AG triathletes and rec-runners can go for a very long time - decades - and keep doing it. That is great to see, but with all due respect, these folks are not training/racing out at the ragged, bleeding edge, where I think you do have a limited number of hours/miles or whatever.




Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev,

It might be a good time to post this up. Maybe it's time for many( not you in particular) to go the other way - go short. Many will be surprised by what they get out of it at a number of different levels.

Another great and totally different view from Paul Huddle - as only Huddle can:

http://www.multisports.com/news/1264147046.shtml


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I've actually been going "short" for the past 3 years now (even though I have done 3 IMs in that time). No runs longer than 13 miles in training, no rides longer than 4 hours for an Iroman build aside from 2 rides in the leadup to IMLP. The rest of the time, long rides in 2-3 hour range. Other than that, all my training has been focused on shorter and faster...lots of 10K's, short ski races, sprint tris, dus etc and a bunch of half IM's which is what I really "race at" and the short racing helps this event distance.

I don't find half IM to be "that long". The training for that is petty much the same as Olympic tri. Anyway, as I said elsewhere, you can do an Ironman competition reasonably well off half IM training if you have been doing this stuff long enough. You might not get a PB performance, though, but that's a tradeoff between going fast at shorter racing vs going fast at long racing. Nothing wrong with going fast and truly racing the shorter events and simply participating in the longer ones (not really racing all out). I do like the day of an Ironman though. Its something you typically don't get at the shorter events. For that reason, I enjoy doing them, but I have no illusions about "racing all out" as I don't really WANT to put in the required training....just like some people might chose to do a 10K without putting in the right training and just get the 10K result they get off "Ironman base"...it goes both ways.
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [terencejk05] [ In reply to ]
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A guy in our local tri club did 5 IMs in a year. I think it was either 2007 or 2008. Not a pro and not a speed demon, he finished all of them around 13 hours. He was in his late 40s at the time. I think he's now completed 12 IMs, including Kona, but he got to Kona via the lottery. As far as I can tell, all the IMs have not had a detrimental effect on his health. If anything he is more fit than ever and has been getting steadily faster.

He uses the IMs and other endurance events to raise funds for a charity he feels strongly about, and has raised more than $50,000 so far.

More info here: http://www.joeturcotte.com/

He is a very nice person, but really a regular guy - not a pro or outstanding athlete like Joe Bonness.

BTW, a guy in the local running club ran all 20 Colorado marathons last year, winning several outright, his AG several times and easily qualifying for Boston. He's in his early 50s.

Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [Michael Jones] [ In reply to ]
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Michael Jones wrote:
In Reply To:
all out stand alone marathon is tougher then an IM. You need more recovery from it.

Some marathoners do more then 2 marathons per year as well. It can be done.

sorry but BS lol! IM is all out all day . . . Fast marathoners train fast and go high miles too . . . certainly Ryan hall trains low5's on long runs even. I could surf and get some real numbers but I'll leave it at least an educated level of bs =)

I would have to agree that running a marathon can be more exhaustive than a full IM. In 2016 I did 3 full ironmans, 12:02, 12:11, and 11:50. I also ran a standalone marathon at 2:59. More 2:59 I was in a full zone 5.

2017 I have 4 full ironman races as well as Boston and New York. I am more concerned with the marathons than I am with the IMs. Hey, just one guys take on it.
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [prosarbadhikari] [ In reply to ]
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You do realise that you are replying to a 7 year old thread?
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
General reply to this thread:

  • In response to Support Crew, 2 things I'd like to point out. Racing IM's in relatively tourist mode vs racing them all out has a huge impact on the next few weeks or next few months. What's interesting for me, is that the diff between "toursit mode" and "all out" is likely no more than 5-10 minutes of delta on race day, and they come from trying to run 30 second per mile faster over say 20 miles (10 minutes). The diff is huge, in effort, but the impact on final time is not that huge (the only diff is it might not mean a PB or Kona qual)...but for most people 10 minutes is in the noise
  • If you race in tourist mode (so to speak) the impact of the multiple Ironmans (the actual races) is not that bad. As I mentioned elsewhere in the thread its is the day in day out overload grind of the IM training. I'd concurr with Gleveq (she said when she did 3 in 13 months it was "shoot me" time. I found doing IMLP+IMC 5 weeks apart much easier than doing IMLP + Kona. My head nearly blew apart trying to do the Kona training cause I had to ramp for another build while managing family, work pressure and training in the dark and cold...in the end, I just threw in the towel on the second IM build, and just did 2 "long weeks" and otherwise did training more like OLympic/half IM training (and did a PB in Kona....go figure).

This is a great thread. Thanks for all your input. I'm in the early stages of contemplating a double IM year. With a young family and high-pressure job, it's just such a life sacrifice to do all the training, I feel like I want to "enjoy" the race experience twice as well as a hedge (in case of terrible conditions, a nutrition mishap, etc.)... double my bang for training buck. Doing the two IMs fairly close (5-7 weeks apart) seems like the best way to do this.

Two questions:
1) What did the five weeks between the races look like for you? How might you modify if you only had 4 weeks, or had an extra 6/7th week. What is optimal in your POV?
2) If you were going to do one in tourist mode, and one in "race" mode, which would you choose for which? I'm thinking race 1 as "tourist" mode to dial in effort/pacing/etc. and the 2nd you completely empty the tank?
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [doubleplay] [ In reply to ]
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doubleplay wrote:
More power to anyone who is going for more than one Ironman for year but can somebody explain me what the point is?

Perhaps because you enjoy participating in, and completing, Ironman distance triathlons?

If you can recover sufficiently, and have suitable goals, and enjoy what you are doing, then it seems logical to me. I have never done 2 in a year before, but this year I have Roth and then Wales, with about 9 weeks between them. I love Wales, and have attended the last 3 years (races one, supported two). I would be going to Tenby to support anyway, so why not race given I will retain fitness and have sufficient recovery.

What I did find tough was last year I did two 50 mile ultras with about 6 weeks apart. My legs were mashed up after the first, but I pushed through and trained and completed the second. After that race, though, I was physically fatigued for quite some time. I then just had a really chilled out summer to recover.
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [Misery] [ In reply to ]
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Lets see. I did (1) Hawaii ironman Oct 11, 2014, was 14th 50-54 agegroup with 10:08 (with a 3:33 run) (2) IM Texas in April 2015, was 5th 50-54 and qualified for Hawaii, (3) IMMT in Aug, was 5th in 50-54 and then (4) Hawaii Ironman Oct 10, 2015 and my left knee really was bothering me. Had a slow painful race. Pissed off, I did the (5) Baystate marathon the following Sunday after hawaii, with a 3:23 and qualified for Boston. So four IM and one additional marathon in one yr and a week with 1300 miles of running in 2015.

I saw the knee doctor the following tuesday who said if I run another mile, plan to have full knee replacements. Apparently I was bone on bone in both knees. Guess that wpuld explain the pain. At 55 now I havent run over 10 miles since, though I did bike 11,000 miles in 2016 and now race road, cyclocross, mtb and Gravel!!! Stay alive baby!!! Im not proud, just loving life.
Last edited by: bluetreefour: Apr 5, 19 16:57
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Re: Multiple Ironman Races in a year... [bluetreefour] [ In reply to ]
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Not to hijack the thread, but noticed it started over 10 years ago, and there was a reference to Joe Bonness. I haven't heard much about him lately, but noticed that Support Crew (his wife) indicated some afib issues in the thread. Did a google search and nothing comes up. Just curious on if he's still competing, he was a fantastic triathlete, and a great guy.
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