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Post deleted by Jar Jar
Re: In the spirit of the new era -- part I [peleke] [ In reply to ]
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Read Democracy in America by Alexis DeTocqueville. All will be revealed.
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Re: In the spirit of the new era -- part I [peleke] [ In reply to ]
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For me it is two things.

1. Money is power. Money buys media, money buys land, money buys guns and butter. The more money you keep away from the government the more power the people have. I have not trust of government, mine or yours, and freedom is for people not heartless, thoughtless bureaucracy.

2. Socialism destroys creativity. Creativity and achievement happen best in an environment of completion and risk. The less risk, the less completion the less reason to achieve the most in you.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: In the spirit of the new era -- part I [peleke] [ In reply to ]
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It robs people that work harder or more creatively, as they have to contribute more.

Some people call the safety net socialism. I have no problem with a safety net, as long as it's minimal and efficient.
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Re: In the spirit of the new era -- part I [rb5980] [ In reply to ]
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It robs people that work harder or more creatively, as they have to contribute more.

Some people call the safety net socialism. I have no problem with a safety net, as long as it's minimal and efficient.


RB- I'd have to say I agree, a first!

IMO-every population has dead weight-these are the people who choose not to work, not to contribute, not to try. Socialism promotes that even more. Why should someone work hard when they know their neighbor will go work for him and he will still get his supper. Socialism takes away the incentive to work hard, to put in the extra effort, to go above andfbeyond (sounds like a union). It takes hard work and the extra effort to be successful, to take the next step to develop the next great product.

For me I am far more comfortable being in charge of my own future and success than some government program and some guy down the street.

The bottom line is through history full blown socialism has never been successful and has failed.

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I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

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Re: In the spirit of the new era -- part I [rb5980] [ In reply to ]
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"Some people call the safety net socialism. I have no problem with a safety net, as long as it's minimal and efficient."

The "safety net" is socialism and socialism's foot in the door. Once FDR said it was OK to rob Peter to pay Paul, Peter's financial independence was history and Paul's motivation was on life support.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
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Re: In the spirit of the new era -- part I [peleke] [ In reply to ]
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There are a few things which contribute (IMHO)...

1) Most people don't understand what Marx actually wrote.

2) There is a hold over from the cold war where everything associated with the USSR is evil.

3) Human nature unfortunately prevents either true socialism or true capitalism form being viable options as people will try to "cheat" the system.
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Re: In the spirit of the new era -- part I [Richard R] [ In reply to ]
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"Most people don't understand what Marx actually wrote. "

What Marxist ideas are we missing?

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: In the spirit of the new era -- part I [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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I could be a smartass and tell you to go read it and find out but I will not.

Basically (this analogy is mine) Marx envisioned a society running like a family. Nobody objects to kids doing chores and not going out and working while parent(s) make more than they spend. The family in today's america functions as a collective, Marx envisioned this model spread to society at large.



People getting fat and lazy while others work may have been the reality in most "socialist" nations but they are no more the ideal of socialism than Ken Lay is the poster child of capitalism.
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Re: In the spirit of the new era -- part I [Richard R] [ In reply to ]
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The problem is grand ideas usually have nothing to do with human nature. We will take the easy way out most of the time so if we are going to have things done for us we will not rise to the occasion and go the extra mile for ourselves in others. Why would we that other guy is going to do it.

Socialism and communism are failed ideas.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: In the spirit of the new era -- part I [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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I agree.

But there will always be people that need help that can't help themselves. I prefer to help those people.

Just like I prefer to live in a society that has roads and bridges and police and firemen, even though I am being "robbed" of my money to help pay for them.
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Re: In the spirit of the new era -- part I [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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I agree that socialism does not work do to the nature of people, however I would be careful of going to far the other way and saying that capitalism is therefore the ultimate form of economics. Capitalism requires all participants in a transaction to have knowledge of all factors and to always act in their own best interest, conditions which are impossible to achieve with real people.

Therefore as is frequently the case when dealing with people the "best" or probably most realistic case is some mix of the two.
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Re: In the spirit of the new era -- part I [Richard R] [ In reply to ]
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Of course a mix is best but the mix must be heavy on the capitalism part. No systen is perfect but there is a best system.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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