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Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets
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All I know is Shimano. I know nothing of Campagnolo. So can someone/everyone provide me with a quick lesson.

Are there parallel’s between Campy groupsets and Dura-Ace, Ultegra, 105? Why would you choose one over the other?

Durability? Weight? Compatibility with borrowed race wheels?

Thanks all.
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [Oz Tri-Guy] [ In reply to ]
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They are both wonderful. Obviously some differences, but basically you should be happy with either.

My biggest problem with Campy is that if Shimano never came along, we'd still have friction shifting, downtube shifters, traditional sidepull brakes (or worse yet, Delta brakes), our brake cables would still come out of the tops of our levers, and we'd still have 5 speed freewheels--and they'd still thread on, no cassettes. In other words, for the last 20 years, Campy's greatest achievement has been to imitate Shimano's ideas. Which is OK, but Shimano deserves a hell of a lot of credit for making the modern bicycle what it is today. Shimano also deserves a lot of credit for making awesome performing bikes an affordable reality for everyone. I have a beautiful 30 year old Paramount with all Nuevo Record on it. And for 500 bucks I could buy a modern bike that outperforms it tenfold. Again, thank you Shimano.

OK, my rant is over. :)
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [2WheelsGood] [ In reply to ]
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Obviously Eric you haven't tested the latest Campy.

To answer the original poster, one is hand made in Italy by a company that makes parts for Ferrari and NASA. The other is machine stamped in Taiwan by a company that makes fishing gear.

Shimano has a bigger share of the world market and that's why I own three bikes with Shimano. But then the same thing can be said for General Motors and why I have a Pontiac. However, GM does not make my dream car and when I can eventually afford my dream road bike it most certainly will be fitted with Campagnolo Record.

In practical performance terms either will get the job done equally well. Campy seems a little smoother IMO. One advantage of Campy is that the shifters can be rebuilt while the Shimano shifters are thrown in the garbage and replaced.

There is a definite snob appeal about Campy, not so much with tri-geeks, but certainly among the roadies.
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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Obviously Eric you haven't tested the latest Campy.


Don't get me wrong, I know it's great stuff. But it's not innovative. It's copied. The electronic group Campy's working on--if it ever hits the market-- is going to be the first thing since the quick release skewer that they invented. And arguably even that they stole from Mavic.

I guess the way I see it is this: you can buy Campy and invest in the here and now, or you can buy Shimano and invest in the here and now AND better products in the future. The amount of money that Shimano puts back into R&D must be astronomical. That funding has to come from somewhere.
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [2WheelsGood] [ In reply to ]
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My god are you mis-informed or what? Sure ShimaNO was NOT the first with Index Shifting - Suntour was. Then Mavic was second - Shimano was a close third. Shimano was also not the first to put the shifters on the brake levers - Suntour was, however the Suntour design sucked (Wingnut thing) and STI was a much better system.



Should we talk about the Shimano "no group should work with any other group" mantra? All the years that Dura Ace was not at all compatible with even their own other groups? How about that to this day you can not get many small parts for ShimaNO groups? Maybe we should talk about all the years ShimaNO flooded the market with Gray Market components and damn near killed the LBS?



Shimano -vs- Campy? Sure both are good - however ShimaNO's best is still no challange for the Record groupset. I have never in my life looked at Dura Ace and said - "wow" - Still to this day Record makes me take a quick breath (Look at any Record 10 equiped Colonago C40 and you will know what I mean).

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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I was looking at Ultegra equipped bikes. What is the Campy equivalent of Ultegra? I take it that the equivalent might be more expensive, which begs that quiestion of whether it is possible to ask the store to build the bike of with Shimano instead and save some $$$ if the performace will be similar...
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [Oz Tri-Guy] [ In reply to ]
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To get to the original question...

Campy Record seems to be in a class of its own. It is really Campy Chorus with carbon fiber doodads all over the place.

Campy Chorus and Shimano Dura Ace are arguably on the same level.

Campy Centaur and Ultegra are next in line.

Then Campy Veloce and Shimano 105



If you are looking at an Ultegra equipped bike, it's often listed with Chorus as an option. That would really be an upgrade, while some might argue that Centaur is a downgrade. The lines don't necessarily match up perfectly in pricepoint, or "percieved quality"/panache/snob appeal.

Many feel that Campy components last longer. But they're more expensive, and certainly less common in the tri world. The argument is that this could make your life more difficult if you need to borrow gear or take advantage of race support.

I currently ride all shimano. This is really by default rather than by choice. I keep telling myself that my next component group will be Campy Chorus. I know that when it comes time to pull the trigger, it will be hard to accept that the parts aren't interchangeable. The big one for me is having to replace all those cassettes.
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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My god are you mis-informed or what?


My first years in a bike shop were when I was less than 5 years old. Both my parents worked there, so it was sorta my day care. I grew up with bikes. From about 1986 to about 1995 I was the service manager of a bike shop. Those were the years that Shimano went from a fishing reel company to the industry leader they are today. Add that to my many years of racing and riding experience and add the countless bikes and component groups I've owned, and I think it's safe to say I've seen it all (or close to it). Misinformed? Not hardly.

You are right SunTour was the first with index shifting, though if you want to get technical a Sturmey Archer three speed hub was really the first. And technically the Helicomatic was the first cassette hub. Technicalities aside, Shimano took those vague ideas and made them what they are today.

Sure, I can enjoy Campy for the wonderful jewelry it is today. The stuff is beautiful, and it works great too, but when I look at it, I have a hard time not seeing the real innovators that the stuff is copied from. Have you ever wondered how great your Campy stuff would be if they had nobody to copy from? Since I assume you're not using Super Record or Nuovo Record, I think you owe Shimano some gratitude.

My original rant was to simply say that Shimano is the innovator, and Campy is the copier. Now you've tried to insult me by saying I'm misinformed. But if I'm misinformed, perhaps you can prove me wrong by giving some examples of ideas Campy has come up with on their own since the quick release skewer way back in 1927. Good luck with that challenge.
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [2WheelsGood] [ In reply to ]
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i like to look at it this way. campy is for people who stare at thier bikes, shimano is for those who ride.

come on for real people. just pick one and ride! leave the debating about beer flavors.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [ultra-poser] [ In reply to ]
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moved to campy record for the first time this year.
always on shimano before.
both are great mechanically. little advantage with the 10 speeds for campy.

however, aesthetically, campy is way ahead...and this has no price. in a road config. having no cables at the front is awesome (even though you are left wondering, what to catch instead of cables when pulling at the front...)
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [2WheelsGood] [ In reply to ]
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Since you seem to have a background in the industry, it seems strange that you have the mis-guided impression that Campagnolo is a copier. Sure, a dozen years ago Campy had fallen behind Shimano on innovation, but a dozen years before that Shimano made fishing reels. Campagnolo was revolutionizing the cycling industry before any of the current manufacturers in Japan/Taiwan even started making bicycle components - starting with the quick release skewer in 1930 and the modern rear derailleur in 1951.

I think Shimano did cycling a great service when they introduced their SIS and later STI shifting. A great innovation. Campy had to do something to regain their position in the industry. They did this with their Ergo levers, their 10 speeds, and the introduction of carbon fiber on their high-end groupset. Now Shimano has to catch up - which is why they are coming out with a new DuraAce group next year. do you think they would have done this if Campagnolo were still selling downtube friction shifters and delta brakes?

Innovation begets innovation, without it, product development stagnates. In this respect, you should be grateful for Campagnolo, without them, you might still be using your STI levers and 9 speed cassette decade from now, but I can pretty much guarantee you that Shimano will have something more innovative out there for you to play with by then.

John
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [JohnA] [ In reply to ]
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"you should be grateful for Campagnolo, without them, you might still be using your STI levers and 9 speed cassette decade from now"

Agreed, though I'd prefer a 9 speed cassette and STI over a 5 speed thread-on freewheel and down tube friction shifters.

As for suggesting that Campy is somehow an innovator for their Ergo levers, 10 speeds, and carbon fiber... well, I'll give you that they did come up with 10 speeds before Shimano, but Ergo levers were Campy's copy of STI levers. And the carbon fiber in their components does nothing except make it look prettier and suck more bucks out of your wallets--sucking money out of wallets is not innovative.

Since I'm apparently still misguided, I'll make a list of the things Campy innovated:

1. The quick release skewer (ancient history)

2. The first derailleur (ancient history)

3. They recently added a 10th gear (modern)



Now for the things that Shimano… no, I’ll say the Japanese companies, have innovated OR at least made great. Shimano is the overwhelming giant in this category, but SunTour does deserve their credit too.

1. Index shifting

2. Aero brake levers

3. STI levers

4. Dual pivot brakes

5. Cartridge bottom brackets

6. Splined bottom brackets

7. HG (the ramps on the gear teeth and pins on the chainrings)

8. The MODERN derailleur (SunTour with the slant parallelogram)

9. Cassette hubs

10. threadless headsets (I think Dia Compe gets that)

No doubt the list could go on. And this, of course, doesn't even touch on where the heck we'd be in the mountain bike world without Shimano. I shudder to imagine. Campy couldn't even copy Shimano's mountain bike stuff. Their failure at copying them sent them running back to the road scene exclusively. Everyone who is riding a Campy equipped mountain bike, please raise your hand. Hmm, I don't see any hands. Misguided? Maybe. But certainly not blind.
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [JohnA] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks JohnA for trying to get 2wheelsgood off of his Shimano is God rant.I thought that kind of bitching and ranting had gone with the Orang.Guess I was wrong,I'm off to find a more interesting thread that is more balanced (that's the thread not the author, but if the cap fits... ).


"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [2WheelsGood] [ In reply to ]
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Now for the things that Shimano… no, I’ll say the Japanese companies, have innovated OR at least made great. Shimano is the overwhelming giant in this category, but SunTour does deserve their credit too.


Bro--- You forgot Biopace chainrings.

-MK
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [2WheelsGood] [ In reply to ]
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I won't call you misguided, nor am I meaning to start an argument, but here are a few other things Campy innovated:

*Ball bearings in brake/shift levers

*Grease ports in hubs

*Manufacured complete wheels and rims before Shimano, and used their own ideas, to boot

*Arguably had the first chrono sub-gruppo ( tri-sized chain rings, levers, bar end shifters, though I admit Shimano has a much cooler chainring)

* Campy has stayed in the headset game by offering every type

* Campy carbon cranks- do I need to say more?

Now, not to stir the pot, but the low-end Shimano STI lever is more similar to a Campy lever (in operation) than their very own STI units in 105 and higher.

I think Campy executed their dual pivot brakes a lot better than Shimano, and the Campy brake levers are a lot better.

Also, a properly adjusted, lubed,and maintained Campy BB or headset will roll better than any Shimano BB or headset.

I will not take away any of Shimano's innovations, as they have had many of them. I personally think that Shimano has fallen a bit behind with their over-concentration on their (licensed from Rolf Prima) wheels. This will end up being corrected in 2004 (new Dura Ace), for certain.

Industries can go through highly innovative and stagnant phases. Shimano and Campy both have gone through this over the years.

As far as mountain bikes- what are they? (just kidding)

I run Shimano, as they have basically become the industry standard. But my Dura Ace rear mech is getting old. My Corima is itching for some real quality componentry. I like my Shimano, as well. You can't go wrong with either.
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

*Manufacured complete wheels and rims before Shimano, and used their own ideas, to boot


Fair enough. I'll also add that Campy deserves a lot of credit for their line of rims back in the late '80s - early '90s. They had a lot of great rims and were one of the only real alternatives to Mavic's domination way back then.

However, although it's true Campy may have had pre-built wheels and carbon cranks before Shimano, they don't deserve the credit for innovation. Many other companies have had pre-built wheels before Campy. And carbon cranks have been showing up in spurts from smaller companies since the early to mid '90s if my aging mind serves me. I remember seeing some at the bike show at least 10 years ago.
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [2WheelsGood] [ In reply to ]
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I remember that others have had carbon cranks before Campy. I looked at one of the first pairs of Zipp carbon cranks (did not sway me away from my old trusty Sweet Wings, however), and I think Q-rank (or something like that) showed them aeons ago. I could go on and on, but full carbon cranks are a lot harder to manufacture than carbon over aluminum skeleton. I admit I am unsure of whether or not the Campy cranks are 100% carbon (save pedal spindle and BB axle openings). Others have had pre-built wheels before Campy, but their disc wheels and their innovative (but very short-lived) front solid track wheel used their own interesting twists.

Is it innovation? Hard to say, unless you are bent on having your components (especially cranks) match up perfectly because the parts going in the system were made by the people who know it best.

Campy's problem is that they price things way too expensively because everything they do is done the hard way (on their top-tier gruppos). Shimano can do things the hard way, but choose to sell units rather than do it the hard way (which I see no problem with, myself). I imagine that the carbon Record cranks will either disappear or be a very rare bird, as not many will pony up the necessary $$$ for them. I admit that there are many other options for carbon cranks, but the Campy ones are up there with the Cat carbon cranks and the Colnago cranks.

What would be true innovation? Make a top-tier gruppo 400 grams lighter, 75% better shifting action, 100% smoother hubs, last two times longer, and cost 50% less than the last generation's gruppo. Has it been done? Only computers can boast that they have improved this much, with the exception of lasting longer.
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [Oz Tri-Guy] [ In reply to ]
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I'll jump in quickly on this. It's good to see bunnyman back! Shimano vs. Campagnolo is analagous to Lexus vs. Ferrari. IMHO Shimano is excellent, simple, highly compatible and widely available as well as fairly priced. Part of its advantage is its commonality: Most wheel sets are Shimano compatible FIRST, then campy compatible at some point. Campagnolo offers some products Shimano does not. In general the product is more refined but also more complex. Shimano does not make a product that competes with Record: Record is head and sholders more refined and sophisticated than Dura-ace (current 9 speed, new Dura-Ace 10 speed notwithstanding). Dura-Ace strikes me as being slightly more advanced than Campagnolo Chorus but does not have the sophisticated bells and whistles like a carbon crank (optional on Record). Everything about Record is impressive. I have two road bikes now and three tris bikes. They all have Dura-ace. I can't really afford Record. Heck, I can't really afford what I've got! Just my .02 cents.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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shimano vs. campagnolo is more like windows vs. mac. in the end it is just penis waving. windows and macs can do the exact same things. the only people who really care to the point of hatered for the other system are the same people who argue baseball stats or sit in there parents basements and argue in klingon on star trek chat rooms.

shimano and campagnolo both have major tour, spring classic and world championships under thier belts. both systems are great.

i say ,to the digust of many, that it really makes no diffrence if you ride record or dura ace. you will perform the exact same. this statement will be even more true when the shimano 10 speed comes out.
the question comes down to, do you want a rolex or do you want timex? both do a great job.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [ultra-poser] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
i say ,to the digust of many, that it really makes no diffrence if you ride record or dura ace.


I totally 100% agree. I would love either, and at the finish line (as the pros prove every day) it really doesn't matter. My only point through this whole thread is that every single person on this board enjoys the wonderful performance of the modern bicycle--no matter what brand name is written on the components--due either to the Japanese companies' ingenuity directly, or because the competition they brought to the market has forced every other manufacturer to step up to the challenge.

Maybe my slight distaste of Campy comes from the fact that I was one of the poor bike shop rats who had to work on Delta Brakes and Campy's horrible first attempt at index shifting (the very first attempt when it was still called C-Record). Working on that stuff was a traumatic experience one doesn't soon forget. :)
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [2WheelsGood] [ In reply to ]
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Blah blah Blah...



Come on you pessimist...who really cares if the Delta brakes sucked? They were beautiful (didnt they weigh about 10 pounds too?) Best thing about the Deltas is EVERYONE (and all dogs, bats and cats for a 5 mile radius) knew when you were slowing down..





SQUUUUEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Shimano vs Campagnolo Groupsets [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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They were beautiful


Yes they were; actually, still are (though I opted for Cobaltos on my own ride). The worst part about 'em from a mechanic's standpoint was that you had to cut the cable pretty much flush with the anchor bolt. Not only was that a pain, it also made it nearly impossible to re-use the same cable more than once. Well, you could do it, but it was a pain. And because of the way the cable came out of the bottom, right into the tire, getting the cable tension just right upon the first install was also a pain. And after all that, they still didn't work for crap! :)

BUT! I'll try to be an equal opportunity basher: Shimano's "U" brakes (we're talking mountain bikes here) when mounted to the bottom of the chain stays like was all the rage for a couple years (late '80s I believe), were just as messy as Delta brakes. Absolutely stupid. The bike industry really has come a hell of a long way!
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