Diesel subs are cheeper to build, maintain, and operate than nuclear subs. Additionally, they are quieter.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

We bought diesel powered because no one makes a sub with oars (something to do with leakage). Our military is past underfunded as we have Sea King helicopters that require 30 hours of mtce. for every flight hour, more when they crash which is a regular occurence. When we need heavy arilift our miniscule fleet of Hercs is compromised by their age at ~ 40 years old and therefore we had to get the US to help get our peacekeepers gear to Afghanistan and on and on...


The subs in question were built byt the Brits in the late 80's, operated till the early 90's when they went all nuke. They were un-mothballed in 98 and have been in refurbishment mode up till now. As witnessed by the latest breakdown on the HMCS Chicoutimi's maiden voyage (with the loss of 1 life in the ensuing fire on board due to an electrical fault) the 4 subs for 750 million doesn't look all that great. The media has had a field day as doc's are surfacing that the subs were a PITA when the Brits had them and apparently electrical faults head the list.....hmmm can you say Jaguar??

Why do Brits drink warm beer?
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Lucas makes fridges.
Whoever decided to buy British build subs should be court martialed (I know it was probably a civilian that made that decision, regardless though).

I'm not saying these subs are good, or that the manufacturer is quality, but electrical fires are not unheard of on ships and I assume, submarines. Not being a submariner, I can only comment on surface ships, but we have them in the US Navy regularly.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Does Canada have any enemies?

Agreed, however I think what really irks me (as well as most Canadians) is that it is more of the same bullshit that our people in the military have to put with on a daily basis. As to the 4 sub deal with GB, all of the boats have had numerous issues since we got them. One of them is still in dry dock in Halifax and has been almost since it was acquired. It has also been documented by the media that these boats had numerous issues when the Brits operated them before they mothballed them. Switching to nukes made sense to them operationally, but I'll bet they were happy to be rid of these 4 additions the the Canadian dry docks...errr ah military.

Our military's biggest challenge shouldn't be dealing with sub-standard and/or antique equipment. Another example is the peace keeper killed in Aghanistan whose Iltis jeep (do you remember VW's the "Thing") was demolished by a land mine, a HUMVEE would have been heavily damaged but would have offered far more protection. They showed a mechanic working on one and it was truly pathetic. They honestly are a military (huh?) version of the VW Thing complete with a less than 100 HP engine to move itself and 4 troops. It has little or no armour as it can barely propel itself as is.

While fires on ships/subs happen (aircraft too), in the Canadian military it's not if something is going to fail rather than when.

[reply]Does Canada have any enemies?[/reply]

Other than the Liberal Party of Canada, no.

"Other than the Liberal Party of Canada, no"

Surely you mean the "Bloc Quebecois"

Well, I guess you get what you spend. Even with tons of money, our Humvees still get people killed by bombs and landmines.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

quote: "Surely you mean the "Bloc Quebecois"

LOL. In the broader sense of the country yeah you bet!! As to the lack of funding to the military vs. the money wasted on the gun registry (more now than what the 4 subs cost) et al my vote for ineptitude goes to the Liberals. Thanks to John Cretin's electioneering in "93" the Sea Kings are still in the air (sort of), we paid something like $500 mil in cancellation penalties and will be waiting till 08 I think for their replacements.....priceless. Oh and stop calling me Shirley ;)

The diesel/electrics that Canada buys are outstanding. They're an improvement upon the Russian "Kilo" class models and are super-quiet. They make for great hunter/killer platforms and special operations delivery vehicles for inshore littoral purposes.

And I don't think that they'll be using them upon Partie Quebecois anytime soon :-)))

[reply]Well, I guess you get what you spend. Even with tons of money, our Humvees still get people killed by bombs and landmines.[/reply]

True enough, but at least give them a fighting chance. I always take pride in the fact that Canada is highly regarded for their peace keeping forces, unfortunately our funding of the military does not reflect that. In Afghanistan our troops showed up in camo green to work in a desert environment. I realize we will never spend at US levels (per capita) but now we are talking about clothing which makes them stick out like a sore thumb. Our guys were spending their own money to try and spray paint stuff desert tan. We should them out in TSR gear, Speedos for everyone!!!

I agree, the one in dry dock in Halifax is the quietest of the bunch (and so will be the Chicoutimi once it makes port). I know you have a military background so will defer to your opinion on the subs. The former editor of Janes Defence Weekly said the same thing,. Hopefully all of the problems get fixed and these 4 boats can be put to use for something beside media fodder.

And now for something completely different, the Bloc and the Conservatives are in some unholy alliance threatening to topple the minority Liberal gov't...who would have thought!!!

I've worked with Canadian armed forces (they're all one service, but with different insignia to delineate the various branches). Tough, competent and genuinely trying to do the right thing with limited resources.

They've shed blood in Afghanistan, backing our play all the way. Can't complain about their contributions in the war on terror. I was born and raised near Detroit, right across from Windsor. Love the city, the countryside and the general good feelings towards the U.S. that people have over their.

I know it's tough sitting right next to a powder-keg country (truly the 1000 pound gorilla :-) like the U.S., and I also remember that the Canadians hid some of our embassy personnel in Iran until they could get them out of the country and to safety. Some of us will never forget that.

Tony

ahhh fyi, the Bloc are mostly ex-Mulroney Conservatives - no surprise that they would ally themselves with the current Reform/Alliance/Conservative Party.

mp

Thanks for that Tony :) Can you spare a guy a dime for a cup of coffee, or maybe trade for some cows and a little lumber ;)

BTW, living next to the gorilla is why we spend so little on our military. Canadians love to bitch about the Big brother next door but if the shit ever hit the fan we all know who is going to have to do the dirty work

But back then they were Conservatives from Quebec, now they are Seperatists hoping to take Quebec out of confederation. But isn't their leader Cheese Head a commited seperatist since day one? No surprise they would align as it comes down to numbers, either of the 2 parties with the NDP doesn't add up to enough votes, watch the Bloc jump ship if PM starts giving away the farm.

What's the feeling over there about the whole "Quebecois" thing? Will they precipitate a seccession, eventually? I remember that Chretien practically begged them during one referendum not to do it. I think it was barely voted down the last time.

Man, that whole area up there is tender. I think the government relied upon the vote of the Mohawk Indian tribes up there on the vote last time?

It's died off for now although the both the Bloc (Federal) and the Partie (Provincial) Quebecois are adamant on seperation. The only reason the PQ have shut-up for now is they are not the government and would put it to vote today if they thought they could win and have said exactly that. When the time is right and they feel that the seperatist sentiment is high enough they will call another referendum. They have said repeatedly that 50% + 1 is good enough, the last one was damn close ~ 52/48 I think but don't quote me on that.

As far as that cretin errr...., Chretien yeah he spent lots on "advertising" to try and convince the fence stitters to stay in Canada. We are now dealing with the fallout of that scandal as hundreds of millions were paid out to Liberal freindly ad agencies to promote federalism in Quebec, but very little if any real work was ever done. So we sit and wait for the next vote as it will come sooner or later.

"I also remember that the Canadians hid some of our embassy personnel in Iran until they could get them out of the country and to safety"

That's something I'm very proud of. We may not agree with everything Uncle Sam does, but in the end Americans are the closest thing to family that us Canuks have. The Brits, Aussies and Kiwis are pretty cool also.