Mr. Perfection wrote: I still believe that the only
advantage to be gained from PC's is that of
offloading the weight from the pedal. Suppose that
the only chain drive power that could be applied by
the cranks was that of the PC's pulling up with the
main power pedal sector in neutral, how far would PC
power take you up a very slight hill. When you are
using PC power only, you can give it your full
concentration but when both pedals are in use, your
concentration will be divided so PC power will be even
less than that of PC use only."

I don't know. In the beginning the power generated on the upstroke is quite small. As the muscles develop it will get larger. What the full potential is I don't know, although I think it is substantial (maybe half what one can do on the downstroke). This will someday be determined by a study, but until then we are guessing.

Just unweighting the pedal can result in significant power gains. However, I am sure that the reports of some here requires them to apply power on the upstroke and when you are thinking about it you can feel your foot pulling on the shoe. How much is not known.

Let me give you an example of an elite report I just received. Before PC's this individuals max power was 1050 watts for 12 seconds. He just did 15 repeats of 15" hard and 45" rest, maintaining 1000 watts during the hard periods for 15 seconds (apparently he felt he could have gone higher but the CT wouldn't go anyhigher). It is hard for me to imagine this improvement came from simply utilizing the extensors more, or even, from just unweighting. To see such a dramatic improvement in endurance (the power is essentially the same) at this power to me means the power is being spread out over very many more muscle groups. I have no proof but it is certainly an intuitive explanation.

---

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Mr Perfection wrote: "Having made
a simple pull exerciser, I have found that pulling up
power is very limited, after the first 20 or 30
continuous pull-ups your pulling up muscles just
tire too easily and you have to quit. A small piece
of timber and less than 2 ft of elastic is all it takes to prove this."

Your little device points out very nicely what the PC's do for you. It is not that you can't pull up againts resistance, it is you have no endurance to do so. Do develop any aerobic endurance requires a minimum of 20 minutes of an activity 3-4 times per week. If you were to do your little exercise thing 20-30 minutes regularly you would see improvement. Or, all you need do is put PC's on your bike and do your regular riding.

After you have trained the muscles to become aerobic muscles, the first part of the problem is solved. The second part is to pull up without thinking about it. PC's solve this problem also whereas your stretch cord thing does nothing for this problem.

PC'ers who have been out on rides and had a clutch failure or other problem have been able to ride home 20-30 miles one legged without much problem (at least after they have adapted).

Frank

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--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Perhaps the answer was lost in all the extraneous garbage I wrote.

Simple answer: It depends on the individual, and the conditions. The more effectively the hypothetical individual has trained to execute this task, the farther they will go up the hypothetical hill.

First extra comment: Just as in any athletic endeavour, at some point, there will be diminishing returns in the performance results, unless more effective ways of training are used in order to perform the task at hand.

Second extra comment: If I were the individual, I can tell you I would go farther up that hill now than I could 3 months ago. I think I will be able to go even farther up that hill in another 3 months, but, that is conjecture. How long I might continue to improve at this task is also unknown.

---

Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

[reply][reply]


Your little device points out very nicely what the PC's do for you. It is not that you can't pull up against resistance, it is you have no endurance to do so. To develop any aerobic endurance requires a minimum of 20 minutes of an activity 3-4 times per week. If you were to do your little exercise thing 20-30 minutes regularly you would see improvement. Or, all you need do is put PC's on your bike and do your regular riding.



Frank [/reply]


OK, I will try this exercise regularly for a few months
and will then make a judgement. I always admire a
person who believes there could be a better way to
perform a task and then tries to prove it.
But having said that, I am 100 per cent certain that
Anquetil's linear pedaling technique is the one and
only invincible way to time trial. PC's could not be
used with his style because he did not unweight the
pedal upwards, he did it in a backward direction.

Frank,
I would miss your input if you dropped into deep background or went off and started up your own forum. I am just going on my perception and, based on some of the feedback, I may be in a small minority. If so, I would want you to ignore my suggestion.

This thread is an example of my concern. You open it with the exciting new feedback from a cross country skier. It is information I was glad to read. Unfortunately, when you introduce it, it can easily be interpreted as promoting you product. If the cross country skier had opened the thread, it takes on a rather different complexion.

My intent was to encourage you to find a way to participate in the forum which would decrease the quantity of your posts but not the over all quality. Perhaps this would entail answering when people call out to you but it would also include correcting or edifying others comments AFTER waiting awhile to see if other posters cover those points. Wait for the vacuum, then add air.

Dan's one liner triggered my post because I worry that others might be discounting your posts simply because you have a product to promote. You walk a tightrope. Others do as well, for example, Gerard and Frank Renn.

The point that you have no direct competition is well taken. Although some posters won't agree, it appears to me that your PCs are revolutionary. But we all know that you have to sell them. In doing so, you are competing with other products, whether it be a Renn disc or a new P2K. You are competing for the dollars of the (in this forum) triathlete/duathlete.

Maybe I am way off the mark on this, just my thoughts for what they are worth.
Bill

This thread was unusual because I started it but it went directly to a point we had been discussing before and it suggested what type of person might expect an "easier" transition than not. I spend a lot of each day thinking about this stuff and trying to figure out correlations like this. Someone else may not make the connection. And, some people might take that info and decide that XC skiing is an excellent cross-training tool for the cyclis/triathlete during the off-season and PC's are unnecessary (or less necessary).

I agree I am in competition with all products for the discretionary dollar. However, by enhancing the power of the athlete (assuming I do), I enhance the value of every other aero product out there. The faster one goes the more likely they are to consider upgrading to an "aero" product or some other product designed to enhance performance or the more value they get from the products they already have. The closer one is to qualifying to Kona, it seems, the more motivated they are to do "anything" it takes to help them to get there. Triathletes, as a general rule, have more than the average amounts of discretionary dollars. It is not like someone who buys a pair is taking food away from their children, at least I hope not.

The problem is, that essentially any input by me is seen by many as marketing my product. Unfortunately, the product, IMHO, is every bit as good as I say so those who hear me or others touting them, who don't believe this, see this as unproven inaapropriate marketing hype. I will try to be more discreet. I will probably be posting less anyways, now that racing and expo season is starting, because I will be traveling a lot more (leave today as a matter of fact).

---

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Perfection wrote: "PC's could not be
used with his style because he did not unweight the
pedal upwards, he did it in a backward direction. "

Huh? I don't understand how one "unweights" backwards, especially the last quarter before TDC? One has to do backwards, upwards, and forwards at the appropriate times to be able to pedal in a complete circle.

---

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

I think it would be very valuable if you could create a PC forum as a part of your website, Frank. Powercranks have helped me so much, and it would be helpful to see how others are using them and their best means of progress, i.e. exclusive use vs. for specific drills. And this would help to avoid creating a mess of trouble on the Slowtwitch forum, with endless wasteful debates ad naseaum. As much as Powercranks are helping me, I don't want to alienate or upset people that would rather not hear about them, just as much as I avoid the war topic debates.

In general, I think that most traffic on the Slowtwitch forum tends to be centered on materialistic debates and questions about equipment. Of course equipment is important, but I wish there was more emphasis from contributors on training plans, techniques, sports psychology, etc. Perhaps that's just my distorted viewpoint on the matter......

Regards,

Daniel.

perfection, could you please explain what you mean by "Anquetil's linear pedaling technique"?

To answer part of your question is that there is more area of improvement available than just the upstroke. Do yourself a favor, go look at Mr. Coyles study that has been mentioned all over the place. There is a graph of torque being applied to the cranks. You will notice that torque was only significantly applied over a small portion of the 360 cycle. So part of the answer is to apply more torque throughout the cycle such as the upstroke. The real question is can this be done.

Some will argue that this is not possible. I would say that to some extent it obviously is. Why?

If you look at Mr Coyles graphs and tables you will see all kinds of interesting information that also point to this as a possibility.

1. The graphs of torques is the first clue. Notice how some riders actually do produce positive torque throughout the cycle and notice how some actually have much lower torque. Incremental improvements are possible. Not an even amount or large but positive. But how can this be accomplished?

Look at the force graphs.

2. Notice the horizontal force being applied as a function of crank angle. How did these guys generate a positive force at 90 degrees? It looks at though they were driving their feet forward like they were trying to straighten the leg on the downstroke. By the way this is not very effective application of this force to turn the cranks. If this force could be retimed to occur at 315 - 45 degree (about 10:30 - 1:30) these gains would be huge. This muscle group already exists and is well trained but just poorly timed.

3. Same thing goes for the horizontal force at 180 degrees. Some subjects are able to generate a rearward force or pulling the pedal backwards across the bottom. Possible improvements once again.

4. As for as the resistance device that you made. I think it would be cool to try. Part of the answer is however how far can you climb stairs? Try this next time you are climbing or sprinting. Use a technique that simulates climbing stairs or running stadium steps. When you do this the back leg has to be quickly lifted to reach the next step or in cycling terms pulled up on the upstroke. One other thing I try is NOT to press down and only let my weight work on the downstroke of course this is while standing.

[reply]
Perfection wrote: "PC's could not be
used with his style because he did not unweight the
pedal upwards, he did it in a backward direction. "

Huh? I don't understand how one "unweights" backwards, especially the last quarter before TDC? One has to do backwards, upwards, and forwards at the appropriate times to be able to pedal in a complete circle. [/reply]
[reply]

But in my first sentence I referred to Anquetil's linear
pedaling style. He did not use circular pedaling, he
pedaled using two lines, one line (the power application line) was parallel to the arm pulling line,
making the combination of arm and leg power possible and the other line (returning leg) was
parallel to the ground. The revolving pedals and
cranks did the rest and gave the impression that it was a round pedaling style. That was why it could never be copied.

[reply][reply]


2. Notice the horizontal force being applied as a function of crank angle. How did these guys generate a positive force at 90 degrees? It looks at though they were driving their feet forward like they were trying to straighten the leg on the downstroke. By the way this is not very effective application of this force to turn the cranks. [#f90017][b]If[/b][/#f90017] this force could be retimed to occur at 315 - 45 degree (about 10:30 - 1:30) these gains would be huge. This muscle group already exists and is well trained but just poorly timed.
[/reply]



Yes you are correct and that is what leads to knee
and back problems. I have already explained the
linear part. But the power line also happens to be
the diameter of the pedals' circle and as power is
applied (using different leg muscles) through that
line, the moving crank/pedal convert that line to
half of the pedal circle which means you have
eliminated the dead spot area. Sounds complicated
but it soon becomes a natural pedaling style.

Hey folks,



I was actually the athlete who newly adopted PC's who just finished a 2700K XC ski season. I also have 20 years of riding bike, 18 years of racing tris and 10 Ironmans under my belt, so clearly, the transition for me, would be quicker than many. To date, I am highly encouraged by how the PC's make me feel when I run. After less than a week, my running already feels more fluid, which is less than what I can say about there impact for my biking which certainly feels "less fluid". That being said, I maintain hope. As Frank says, those "close to qualifying for Hawaii" are willing to try anything. I fall into the camp missing a 30-34 Kona slot by 8 seconds at Wildflower 1996. I am still around 15-20 min out of a slot in the past few Ironman Lake Placid Events and hoping to potentially have that change this year :-)

Interestingly enough, I did start a thread entitled "Novice Powercrank User...humbled but encouraged" seeking specific input on a number of PC related questions. I thank those who did provide feedback there, but as it turns out, many were more eager to debate a thread started by Frank Day than answering a newbie's questions :-). So perhaps it is not Frank's presence in starting/replying to threads, but the eagerness of forum participants to debate :-)

I will think that linear thing through. I hust can't get the picture right now.

Just for clarity, what leads (or would lead) to kneee and back problems? Was the observation of what was happening, going to cause the problems or was the proposed retiming of the force that would cause the problems?

Congratulations, Paul. You will qualify this year! You can even have to stop and fix a flat, and you will qualify this year! Write it down, make your reservations. The best advice I got was from Francois, he told me to get the long rides in and not to worry about anything else (like positioning, cadence, etc.). He was right, everything else just sort of fell into place better after I made it through a couple of long rides. I still have a long way to go, though. I'd bet you're already ahead of me, or will be soon. Happy training!

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

[reply]I will think that linear thing through. I hust can't get the picture right now.

Just for clarity, what leads (or would lead) to kneee and back problems? Was the observation of what was happening, going to cause the problems or was the proposed retiming of the force that would cause the problems?[/reply][reply]


No you will never figure out the linear technique,
it has to be explained and demonstrated in detail
but as soon as you understand it and experience the
power, you can clearly see in Anquetil's video how he
is using this identical linear technique.
Applying maximum torque to the pedal at 3 o'clock
with direct downward pedal pressure from a seated
position is what causes knee problems and back pain. You have to use the lower back to supply the
resistance that is required when direct downward
pedal pressure is used. Proof of this comes when
high gears are used because they magnify the already existing problems. Anquetil's never used
direct downward pedal pressure and the higher
gears which are part of his technique cause no
knee or back problems.

Perfection, there is a thread about steep vs slack seat tube angles that might benefit from your core body stabilization knowledge. Do you think the core body stabilization factors may play a role in which seat tube position gives better biking/running splits?

---

Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

[reply]
Perfection, there is a thread about steep vs slack seat tube angles that might benefit from your core body stabilization knowledge. Do you think the core body stabilization factors may play a role in which seat tube position gives better biking/running splits? [/reply]
[reply]

I don't know anything about tri-bar positions except
that tri-bar cycling looks very awkward and unnatural.
I need to be seated well back behind the bottom bracket as continuous power application starts for me
with each leg at 11 and ends at 5 o'clock. For aero
position, the "Scott Rake" clip-ons are ideal and I
am still in my normal powerful "drops position".

i am not dan's lawyer nor do i work for him. i haven't even see a picture of the guy, but i think i see his point.

again i am not a voice for dan and if i am wrong, dan, please feel free to knock me off the sight.

i think he wants less posting from you mr. day because you are the maker of power cranks. you being on the sight and incourging debate and postive reviews for your product is free advertising. the simple fact you asked "2. Has there ever before been any new sports product as controversial as PC's?" was a clear intent to keep the conversation flowing. the rest of us could talk about your product till the cows come home but we won't make a dime off the sale of your products.

slowtwitch is dan's bread and butter. this sight is funded by paid advertisments. if everyone with something to sale got on the forum and just sold product that could lower the value of his advertisments.

in the end it is his forum. if man ask me to follow a rule of his house i would give him his respect without question.



again dan wouldn't know me from any other poser. this is my view.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

getting back to the original post's idea - it is true, i believe that xc skate skiing and PC-ing have a LOT to do with each other. i am pretty sure the reason i could ride PC's at peak IM mileage from the get go was because i have xc ski skated for many years ( roller skiing in summer, too). it works both ways, too as this year i skiied the birkie after skiing but one time not with my 9 y/o kid at his speed, and that effort was but 90 min or so - i did fine at the birkie, and was only off 15 - 20 min or so from my usual time. instead of skiing i rode the roller with my PC's, as i have a shoulder that is bad nowadays. i think i could use the PC's to basically ski as fast as ever and hardly ski at all, if i work on some upper body weights. . . . . as for elites skiing and bike riding as many have said there are lots of examples - lemond, pezzo, swenson, demattei, phinney, etc. the reason you don't see more is because elite skiiers are out SKIING all summer, not riding stupid bicycles. but among yer average "fast guy" local enthusiast the crossover is a wicked one and fast skiiers always make fast bikers, as a rule and mt bikers, especially.

anyway, dunno what this has to do with triathlon, but it is kinda interesting in explaining why some do better than others at the start of PC riding, maybe.

TTN, I was the fellow who just started PC riding off the XC ski season. This week, I did 4 roller rides up to 40 min. On today's ride, I was back riding at 95-100 RPM, and covering more ground than I do in 40 min with standard cranks at the same effort at 105-120. I'm still trying to learn how to ride standing on rollers. Is it any easier out on the road ? I know that doing a standing sprint on rollers is tougher than on the road even on conventional cranks. Either way, I don't think I would last must longer than 90 min on the road at this point.

Finally, it looks like we got another dump of snow today, so I will be back on skis for a few more days starting tomorrow. I'll let you guys know if there was any effect from PC riding on skate skiing like TTN is reporting. After a week, I have clearly seen an improvement in running fludidity and turnover. My timed 20K loop improvement at 150 BPM was 2 min. I don't attribute this to any improvement of fitness from PCs (I was already fit), it was just that the PC's got my hamstrings and hipflexors firing efficiently even for running.

TTN, next year you should plan on coming up to Ottawa Canada for the Keskinada Worldloppet 50K skate ski.

devashish. standing outside or in would be slightly different at first. i had some problems standing at first - the initial trick is to put nearly ALL your weight on the bars. so braced, you can then "settle into" an effective PC style standing pedalling motion. if you are like me the PC's will demonstrate that previously, when you THOUGHT you were standing and yanking mightily upon the bars and pedals in reality you were yanking against the standing weighted recovery leg. anyway, with you weight on the bars you can correct this, and soon will be able to stand no problem.

as for the world loppet, that used to be a cool goal for my buddies and myself- if not now then later like all the old guys you see from all over at the birkie - i was bumming most heavily when my shoulder started giving me problems. . . . .it only bugs me skiing but it really hurts like a mofo. on the upside some physio guys have steererd me toward strengthening my rhomboids ( rhom-who ??) and initial results are actully good - this and the PC thing might help quite a bit - honestly i was close to just bagging the sport save skating along no poles with my kids until the PC thing this winter. seriously i was just doing early season base roller rides and skiied once, but my legs felt fine during the birkie. the naysayer and never triied them types can say whatever they wish, but after doing this sort of thing for 20 years a fellow can tell what works and what doesn't and the difference between new techniques and just another year.

best of luck - i am betting you will enjoy them. too bad day three is already past - you could have gone for the 101 mile record. :)

TTN, you are like the first 4 minute miler...you'll never be forgotten for what you did!

THanks to TTN's advice, I learned to stand on PCs very easily. I LOVE to do this on the road, even though I rarely stand, because I just fly over hills compared to my regular cranks.

---

Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

TTN is indeed the Roger Bannister of PC's. At least I laid claim to first successful ride on rollers without crashing, but that pales in comparison to 100 miles on the third ride.

Today, was the first time back on XC skis since getting my PC's last week. Fortunately/Unfortunately, we had another dump of snow in our long winter here in Ottawa, so I pulled the skis back out for a 35K ski. I noticed that my balance and my turnover were better than the entire season. I am not sure if I can attribute this to a week of being on PC's or just a week of rest from XC skiing. The true test will be when I get back on snow next winter. In the mean time, there will be other "tests" of PC related improvement at Boston Marathon and Ironman LP.

As for standing climbing on PC's, this seems pretty difficult. Perhaps because my bars are still pretty low in the "Chris Boardman" World Hour record position, so when I go to stand up, my weight body is so far forward that it makes pulling up difficult with the trailing leg. Maybe I need to raise my bars to get this working. For regular seated riding, I have just been putting my hands on the top of the aeropads or the cowhorns, but i have yet to really ride aero without blowing up. Once I get on the road, I will indeed be raising my entire bar setup.