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How do YOU have a discussion/argument?
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It's Friday, and granted I'm a bit punchy, but I am hoping there are some philosphers or logicians (is that a word?) or someone who has read a book (Matt Boutte - didn't you post a book that addressed this?) who can tell me what things need to be set out in order to have a dialogue with someone so that it actually gets somewhere. Too many times I talk to my boss or other people (or read threads here) and I find myself getting wound up because we go off kilter and I end up thinking "What the hell were we/they talking about again?".

Tell me it doesn't have to be this way. I have no doubt it's my fault more than it should be, I just want some good ground rules so that I can get myself back on track...

Thanks in advance,
Nick

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http://pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca/~psyc382/rockgold.html
(Norman Rockwell's "Do Unto Others")
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Re: How do YOU have a discussion/argument? [goobie] [ In reply to ]
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You can never have a productive argument/discussion unless both sides are willing to change to new ideas and see cold logic as what it is. In politics it will never happen. I have stopped posting on politics because no one wants to find truth and learn they all want to fight. I have about a truck load on Kerry and Vietnam but I wouldn't bring it here because the lines are drawn.

In other words you can't get what you are asking for. Just pick your side and go.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: How do YOU have a discussion/argument? [goobie] [ In reply to ]
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In order to have a productive discussion, you need two intelligent parties, and you need to be prepared to acknowledge that you both are looking for a very similar outcome.

The problem with political discussions in America stems from the fact that we all want pretty much the same thing, we just have different ideas about how to get there. The political parties have tried to create a polarization (they're bad, we're good) and can't do this honestly. So both sides make up ridiculous arguments, as if the other side wanted to see the end of civilization as we know it.

Too bad, but that's where we are.

Take abortion for example (light fuse, run away)...

John Kerry says he believes life begins at conception, yet he supports a woman's right to choose. Fact is, you can't have that one both ways. If you believe life begins at conception, then abortion is murder.

Meanwhile, a lot of people say that life doesn't begin at conception. OK then when DOES it begin? And what is it that changes at that moment, making that moment a definable point? Now THAT is how you intelligently deliberate the issue of abortion. Now guess how many proponents of abortion are willing to have that discussion.

Personally, I think it's because they know they're wrong but think they can get away with it because they have enough support. To take such a stand you have to believe there is no afterlife.

Other issues work pretty much the same. The Truth exists independent of our belief in it or support of it. One day, Truth will dawn on many of us. Others will refuse to see it.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
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Re: How do YOU have a discussion/argument? [goobie] [ In reply to ]
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There are no answers, only different ideas about the way things should be. The sooner you learn that the better you will feel. Discussions often turn in circles because people don't agree on what they're discussing. For example:
Manager A says to Manager B, "Things are going badly. We need to cut staff!".
Manager B replies, "Why?"
Manager A says, "Because HR is bloated and costing us a ton of money."
Manager B replies, "Why?"
Manager A says, "Because we had a huge push to get product X out the door and we needed all the resources we could get our hands on. Now product X is out the door and we're overstaffed."
Manager B replies, "Why?"
Manager A says, "Because we've got a ton of product and we're not moving it fast enough to cover our overhead."
Manager B replies, "Why?"
Manager A says, "Because our sales force can't talk to customers fast enough."
Manager B replies. "Ok, I think I understand the problem: Our profits are insufficient to cover our expenses and we're going to run out of money soon.

Think of how many times you've been pulled into conversations like this. Nothing gets resolved, but if you're lucky and diligent, at some point you actually uncover the point of the discussion. Wouldn't it be much easier if the discussion above started out like this?

Manager A says to Manager B, "Our profits are slipping and we're going to run out of money soon. We need to do something."

Too often people offer a solution without first ever agreeing on the problem they're trying to solve (or the idea they want to discuss). Agree on the problem, goals, idea, whatever, then discuss implementation (implementation discussions are where you almost always go off-course).

1. Profits are bad.
2. Expenses are high.
3. Sales are slow.
4. Inventory is bloated.

Now you can talk about implementing a solution.
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Re: How do YOU have a discussion/argument? [jhendric] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]There are no answers, only different ideas about the way things should be. The sooner you learn that the better you will feel. Discussions often turn in circles because people don't agree on what they're discussing.[/reply]

This is true - and I guess this is the crux of what I was asking. I should say I wasn't just aiming at politics - but thank you Tibbs and Elwood for the replies - but about in discussions in general. Unless you frame exactly what is being talked about and rebuff all attempts to veer from that you will not be satisfied. And even then you have to keep your own discipline so that you're not guilty of it. Sheesh. Now I realise I should have gone to debating club more often.

As a result I have to quit my volunteer coaches job tomorrow. Something I have done for four years and enjoyed immensly. Shame.

Hope everyone had a good weekend

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http://pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca/~psyc382/rockgold.html
(Norman Rockwell's "Do Unto Others")
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Re: How do YOU have a discussion/argument? [goobie] [ In reply to ]
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I just do what most of the American public seems to do - cling steadfastly to illogical/unfounded/unproven beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and then repeat my beliefs with greater volume and more and more verve (if I'm cornered I'll resort to logical fallacies) - until I'm surrounded only by folks who have the exact same belief set as I do.

I win the argument by attrition and overwhelming, unflinching ignorance of "truth."

For those of you keeping score at home, this is a sarcastic post. But since I'm never wrong, it's also the only right answer - SO THERE. I WIN, HA HA!

Marty Gaal, CSCS
One Step Beyond Coaching
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Re: How do YOU have a discussion/argument? [goobie] [ In reply to ]
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It is almost impossible over the internet because people are always looking to "score points". You can have a three page airtight argument but have one slight misstep and that is the only thing the person arguing against you will focus on. They will believe that since they "won" that point they won the argument. Never mind the shouting matches that pass as discussion.

Over the internet or in person you have to have two rational people that will actually listen to what is being said. It seems to be very difficult to find two rational people in the same room these days. Or even harder, two rational people logged on to the internet at the same time. :)

If you try to make a fine, but vital, point you are shouted down. For instance, look at the abortion debate.

The following is for demonstration purposes only, I will not get in a fight about abortion here.

Cousin Elwood says, "John Kerry says he believes life begins at conception, yet he supports a woman's right to choose. Fact is, you can't have that one both ways. If you believe life begins at conception, then abortion is murder."

I believe that what Kerry is saying is that "life" begins at conception but "personhood" does not. I agree with him (assuming that is his point) and would make the argument that a fetus does not become a "person" until later in its development. Obviously a 3 hour old fetus is alive, just as cells in a petri dish are alive, but it does not obvisouly follow that all living human cells are a person. But that is a rather complex point and most people are either unwilling or unable to go along for the ride. I'm betting Kerry took a metaphysics class or two in college and sometimes fails to realize that everyone does not share his background. That can be a failure in the person making the argument or in the person refusing to follow along.

Someone else mentioned that both sides have to be open to accepting new ideas, a lot of times people are so sure of their infallibility that you are essentially beating your head against a wall.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: How do YOU have a discussion/argument? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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Another thing that helps if if both people actually READ the exchanged posts. Frequently, people are in such a hurry to snap back or come up with a clever retort that they don't actually read the text, and what they argue has no actual bearing on what you originally wrote. The same people that can jump on the smallest error because it's in print in front of them, can't sometimes seem to read through your actual argument.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: How do YOU have a discussion/argument? [goobie] [ In reply to ]
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Found it -

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=138188;search_string=argument;#138188

The main body of the message:

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There are a great many people on this forum who would benefit greatly from reading How to Argue and Win Everytime by Gerry Spence. One of the basics in this book is that the attempt to argue with someone that is unwilling to accept the possibility that they may be wrong, is pointless. Additionally, he asserts that the only way to truly make a compelling argument is to be able to argue both sides.

Just something to think about.
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Indeed - I guess that answers what I was asking. Obviously, the trick is to spot the people who are entrenched in dogma before it starts to sag your paps.

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http://pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca/~psyc382/rockgold.html
(Norman Rockwell's "Do Unto Others")
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Re: How do YOU have a discussion/argument? [goobie] [ In reply to ]
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Two of the big rules for debate I was brought up with:

1. Define your terms. It's difficult to make progress in a discussion if the parties are talking about different things without realizing it. And defining the key terms up front helps cut down on wiggle room later.

2. If you make a personal attack, you've lost the argument. Game over.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: How do YOU have a discussion/argument? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
2. If you make a personal attack, you've lost the argument. Game over.
Never ever say "you are a(n)"

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: How do YOU have a discussion/argument? [Record10Ti] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, because to call someone the "(n)" word is unforgiveable. :)

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: How do YOU have a discussion/argument? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Things I do in real life, but don't seem to be able to do on the internet:

1. Get to your point quickly; briefly and effectively describe your evidence.

2. Listen to what people are saying rather than listening to how you're going to respond.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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