We're all either running away from something or running to it. I liked Dan (and Allison's) articles also. Dan strikes me as a fairly thoughtful guy in the literal sense- that he thinks a lot. This relationship thing: So dangerous.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

"And this begs the question: What if your spouse laid it on the line to you? What if he or she gave you the ultimatum: Stop all this running and cycling, or I'm outa here? Or to make this a more real-life scenario, what if this was not the explicit message, but the implicit one? What if he or she is already "outa here" in spirit, though perhaps not physically?"

I've been in the very same situation that you describe. I've been a competative cyclist for 30 or so years, riding bikes is part of my soul it's one of the few things in life that really makes me happy.

I was in the 3rd year of a relationship we had been engaged for a while and it was getting close to the wedding [6 months] I rode at the crack of dawn so that I could get back in time to go do things with her but it wasn't enough. We had other issues but we were working through them but when she told me to make the choice between her and riding [mind you I had already stopped teaching scuba classes due to the time commitment] I said no.

there are some things worth walking away from and for me walking away from myself, my passions my identity for what, someone elses self centered demands no. I supported her in what ever activity or life choices she wanted to make but she was unwilling to give me the same respect and support. We went our seperate ways, best thing that ever happened to me.

Six years later I met Ruth and caught her passion for Triathlon, that was 4 1/2 years ago. we got married 3 years ago last month. we train together 3-4 days a week and she pushes me out the door to go do the animal workouts with the guys on the other days. I have never been so happy in my life

I applaud Alison for her choice, not one I would want to make but, contrary to religous crowd I think she did the proper thing. I don't think you should have to suffer a wrong unsupported relationship. You should be happy in your life and not have to live a lie. Kids see though lies and I think they would prefer two happy loving seperate parents to a miserable together resentful couple

Alison I hope you find a new partner that makes you as happy and is as supportive of you as my wife is of me.

Eric

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"on your Left"

to dave in WI and eric: you gave me what i wanted: a transparent look at your relationships. that is tangible stuff our readers can learn from. thanks.

two different approaches, obviously. i don't much think in terms of right or wrong. more in terms of right or left. it's so hard to make a "right" choice, i just use my best judgement and make sure I've really gotten to the bottom of my own motives. it seems you both did that, tho with different outcomes.

christian marriages sometimes don't work out. but they also often do, and when they do, i think it's because both parties have a fairly explicit set of rules they must follow. secular marriages have no standards other than what each person dreams up for him/herself. like stacey hills wrote in his post, you read 5 or 6 chapters into the song of solomon, there's the model wife. it's hard for a christian woman to read that and come away unchallenged.

unfortunately, tho, and i can only speak on behalf of many men out there, women sometimes turn into islamic extremists, at least when it comes to working through a problem. where is it: isaiah? "come let us reason together" (yes, i know the back half of that one). anyway, this is a phrase that has been uttered to wives from husbands, both christian and secular, a hundred million times. and 90 million of those times the woman answers, f**k off, bucko! and you're standing there with your hands in your pockets wondering, "what now?" and if that happens enough times, and it's clear your wife just doesn't want to cooperate, what do you do? tell her to read song of solomon? i don't know.

I'm sure women have a similar story in reverse.

but i digress. good on ya, both you guys. thanks.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hmmm...I'm not entirely convinced that this issue can be so easily boiled down to the nuances of one's religious convicitions, nor that women lack any more ability to reason through an issue than men do.

Ultimately, I think of lot of "it" distills down to how men and women approach problem solving, life, challenges, emotions and a host of other facets of living. In my opinion, men tend to approach things linnearly and women in a multi-dimensional aspect (one that we often cite as being tangental). The key is finding the points at which the two approaches come together in order to successfully share information.

If, in that case, specific religious paradigms, frameworks or values offer added value, then more power to ya. In other cases, however, it's just as valid to assume that other methods work too. If anything, I think that a firm foundation in assumed religious values lends itself to the reluctance to take the easy out and seek divorce. Yet, I doubt that significant numbers of aetheists divorce at a higher rate than believers (in whatever religion...at least those that allow divorce).

Nonetheless, I think that there's a great deal of psychology that factors in every bit as much, if not moreso. Pre-existing problems on the part of one partner, false expectations, unrealistic goals ("I can change him/her to be the person I want."), and simple human limitations pose the biggest challenge. Sometimes they are easily overcome in the name of love; sometimes they are insurmountable. That's the lesson that I learned first hand.

I'm currently on my second marriage...something I never thought I would enter into again after my first ended badly. What I didn't understand or cognitively realize before entering into the first was that we were both doing it for the wrong reasons. She was bipolar with a host of other mental problems, and she was looking for a life-ring. I was seeking to save her. It was doomed from the start and never really had a chance since the love that should have bound us together was no more than a thinly applied layer of false expectations and unreaslistic presuppositions based on some really screwey psychology on both our parts. So...it ended. FWIW, I don't think any amount of religious intervention would have helped, nor do I think medical care for her would have either. The marriage was simply wrong from the get-go.

Thus, I set about getting reacquainted with myself and rediscovering the things that made me happy. I ran, biked, swam, climbed, hiked, etc. And I slowly gained clarity on the hurts inflicted by both of us on one another. Not too surprisingly, life became very good indeed. ...And that's when my current wife came into my life.

It's worth stating that she's Christian and I'm Jewish. That was never really an issue though, since we were both smitten with each other from the start (although we "held off" for a very long time). I'm certain in hindsight (and current vision) that we both shared a similar sense of spirituality, but what I think was so unique was the sheer honesty that we shared from the beginning. More importantly, that honesty has endured. She knows who/what I am and that my sports and other hobbies are a large part of me and help define the Scott that she fell in love with. Likewise, I know that her sports, gardening (a SERIOUS obssession) and her other hobbies help define who she is. And rest assured, I fall in love with her again every time I watch her do something that makes her smile. A successful marriage isn't predicated on you being happy when your spouse allows you to do what you want, but rather on being happy when you see your spouse find happiness/fulfillment.

That's not to say that we don't have disagreements (but I NEED that Carbo) or fights. The thing is that anger never endures or festers into something more sinister. Rather, it's a fleeting emotion and we always seek the common ground upon which to seek the solution to the real problem at hand. Again, for some that might be found via the vehicle that religion provides. For other couples it will be other things. The key, however, is having the ability to share that common thread, vision or whatever. That, in my opinion, is the key to marital success.

I really do need that Carbo, incidentally.... ;-)

bravo, scott

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

More importantly, Dan, bravo to Allison and anyone else going through this. There will be dark days and light days ahead, but rest assured the light-filled ones will become increasingly numerous if you allow yourself to forgive yourself and you allow yourself to start loving yourself again (my goodness that's a lot of yourselves).

Be true to who you are and be true to those who stand beside you. And also know that we are, in a real sense, a collective group of friends who share your passions and appreciate you for what you offer us.

I meant to add that earlier.

Cheers,

Scott

First, I would like to say thank you again to all of you and to use your word Dan "Bravo" to you too. Your oped was as always articulate, well thought out and a beautiful balance of smarts and heart. I have followed the discourse through the day and have been so impressed and proud of the way everyone has addressed such a difficult topic. I am not sure that such an elightened, educated and impassioned (sp?) discussion could have occurred in many other places. Despite the different opinions, the respect shown by all and the transparency made me again very proud to call myself a triathlete.

I can read that many have questions and would love answers but you will not hear more specifics from me than I have already provided. My husband is the father of my children and he is a good father. For this reason he has always and will continue to have my respect and so I am not willing to use this forum or any other to vent. Ultimately, there is also the other side of the coin and "in all fairness" he is not here to speak to it. I will say though that our difficulties took a very long time to come to a head, there was no impulsivity. I worked in true Ironman fashion and came to more 20mile marks in my marriage than I ever will in my sporting life. I worked exceptionally hard for a very diffferent outcome.

Is choosing to end a marriage an act of selfishness? I have examined this from every possible angle. In the end, selflessness does not work either, trust me. My taking up triathlon became a vehicle for self-care, self respect and self-awarenes. I will forever be grateful for these gifts. That said, had the better fit been basket weaving I believe our outcome would still have been the same.

Our children are coping well under the circumstances. We are blessed with articulate, spunky kids who are able to give voice to all that is happening. Without a doubt though there will be an impact, I have no illusions. In making this decision, there was no false belief that this was going to be what was "best" for the kids. In the end though, I have to trust that two parents who are thriving and co-parenting well with still the same values and rules will in the end be better for them then residing with two parents who merely co-exist.

Thanks again for your constructive and heartfelt words.

Alison

I don't pretend to know Alison's situation, so all I can do is wish her the best. I feel very strongly that wedding vows mean something, but that doesn't blind me to the fact that some relationships are better off ended, vows or no.

Since Dan brought up the Bible: I wish I were more of a scholar, but one passage has stuck with me for many years. In Paul's letter to one of the early churches he wrote that wives should serve their husbands. That's the part most of us men like to remember. But the next sentence says husbands should love their wives like Christ loved his church (us). Well, he voluntarily let himself be executed in a particularly foul manner for the sake of his church. Very few marriages would break up if wives thought first of their husbands AND husbands were willing to give up anything and everything for their wives.

Unfortunately, even the most devout Christians don't live in this perfect world and feel fortunate to even catch glimpses of it day to day. Not even being in that category, the best I can do is to do the best I can do. As I look back over 13 years, the worst times in my marriage have been when I wanted something for myself and the best times have been when we forgot ourselves for a while and were completely devoted to the other. We've been through kids, cancer, my obsession with another sport (sailing) and lots of other hard times. It all comes down to that old addage, "the more you put in, the more you get out." It applies to triathlon training, your job, your kids, your marriage, your bank account and your compost heap.

I hope more people read this thread than the one I inadvertedly started with a simple report on PC cranks vs. regular cranks.

This thread covers something that REALLY matters.

It's nice to know that there are people that give these matters so much thought, and are willing to express their views. I cannot imagine any way this type of discussion could be construed as anything but beneficial to everyone involved.

I've been there, too. As a product of a very conservative Christian upbringing, I was a model citizen for most of my first 27 years. When I divorced at 28, and my mother thought I must have had a brain tumor or something! The next 10 years were spent analyzing the reasons for the apparent abject failure, my religious beliefs, my upbringing, and my future. It all makes sense to me now, and I hope it results in me being a better father, husband, friend, person.

Basically, all the introspection led me to the beliefs that I have today, which are not exactly the ones I was taught. My upbringing's "this is right and this is wrong, PERIOD" mantras just didn't ring true to me. I've heard it said that people with a true personal religious conviction are those that have abandoned the religion of their ancestors and found a belief system for themselves.

Sometimes the new religious beliefs are exactly those that you were brought up with...that's great, as long as they are your convictions, not just habits ingrained in you as a child. I forgot who said it, but I like the idea: "There is more faith in honest doubt than found in all the Creeds." The best thing is, it leads to a personal religious conviction that makes your life better, as well as the lives of the people with which you interact.

Thanks for bringing into being such a valuable discourse. Good luck, Alison, and everyone else out there seeking for meaning and direction in their lives. Almost everything is temporary, especially pain. Just make sure to give yourselves a break when things seem really painful, it gets better...sometimes not every day, but, month by month, year by year, it gets better.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Dan, Allison and others,

To go along with what Dan said in his editorial concerning the wedding pictures; there are just two people in the photos. Only the two people in the photos know what is going on in that marriage and they are the only two who can make it work. If one chooses not to, then there is little if anything the other can do.

Marriage is just like life. We grow and develop as we age. When you are young you want to be a fireman, nurse, doctor, etc. Later your interests change and you may find that isn't really what you want to do. Albeit marriage is a little more serious, there are some couples that find out too late that they didn't really know what they were getting into.

I know that I am extremely lucky to have the wife that I do. She has put up with me and my interests for way to many years. Be it 8 month separations while on cruise, the middle of the night calls that a plane had to be flying the next morning or just being gone for 30 of the last 36 months in a squadron. Seeing my eldest daughter walking to see me on the ship when last I saw she wasn't even crawling. My wife has adapted to those things and I have adapted to her desires and interests. Would I call the give and take equal? Never, but I think as our relationship has matured we get as much as we take. We have both made mistakes in dealing with one another, but we have learned and usually don't make them too often.

I'm sure someone will say that if kids are involved that that is different. Not really, because like it or not that couple will make the best decision that they can make at the time. If the couple keeps the interest of the children in the equation (as it appears Allison has) then those children will do fine. Children are pretty adaptable little creatures!

While I think a lot of couples take the easy way out, only the two involved in the marriage know whether they did what they could or were willing to do. No one can or should judge that decision.

Dan, Allison, et al,
Keep up the great job you do here!
Larry

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Larry

Don't be afraid to ride too long or too hard. That's what cell phones are for. Rich Strauss

Actually it is probably by the grace of God and combined with a good dose of dumb luck that I did not even meet my lovely bride until we were both 37, and neither with a marital past. Although, as she quickly points out, I was probably one of those rogues at one time. To which I consistently take the 5th.

At 37 we were both at least semi successful (she more than me), had made our mistakes, discovered our spiritual foundations which although not identical are very similar, were comfortable with ourselves, and knew who we are. So, I think the odds of outgrowing each other are low. But, we both continue to and are committed to always give more than our share. We truly think of the other 1st, most of the time.

I really believe that we are a dream come true. I really don't know whether the stars just crossed at the right time, whether the wait for more maturity pays off, or maybe its just that I found my Angle. I do know that our spiritually, Christianity, plays a strong part and we use that as our foundation. I will say that we both "work" on each other every day, and in many ways.

Now, can you believe, we have our third child due in April. I thought that this part of life, which I have always truly wanted, had past me by. So you see, the dream continues.

I could continue, but I think many of my points are clear from the "Alison" thread. Thanks to Dan and all for helping me and others to continue to grow.

Best Wishes,

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.