I own both and the H3 ride a tad bit rougher but feel nice and fast (as they both do). One thing to consider: If you ever had a bad crash on a 404 it can be rebuilt but the H3 will need to be replaced since it is not made up of wire spokes.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I am also looking at these same two wheels, actually 404s vs. Alps/H3 combo. My biggest worry is durability since lately I have had some bad luck with spokes breaking on my road bike. Any thoughts?

Any other wheels that the forum would recommend? I am going to be doing IM Coeur d'Alene, the bike course is not yet posted but could be a bit hilly and might be windy. The H3 has a published weight a bit heavier than my training wheel rear but in real life will probably end up lighter with ti skewers and a tubular on it.

Chris

I'll also be at IMCdA.

I've previously owned the 404s...Loved 'em. I used them for triathlon, road racing, AND...Hill Climbs...Honestly, they are light, stiff, and aero...A SICK combination.

For IMCdA, I intend to race a set of 909s, but I'll be bringing a 404 rear just in case.

Zipp has excellent quality and their customer service is fantastic. I broke a wheel 1 week before IMUSA in 2000 and they shipped a wheel (crash replacement) to me in less than 2 days so my race was never impacted.

I've heard good reviews of the Hed 3s, but I think they are a bit heavy (I'm a lightness freak). John Cobb will tell you the H3 is the fastest front wheel made (most aerodynamic at least).

You won't have problems in the wind with the 404s...I am 5'10 and weigh 143 and I can handle any wind conditions on them. The H3 might not be as easy in cross winds...

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http://wattieink.com/elite-team/
Raising funds to help wounded veterans and racing RAAM 2013 with http://team4mil.org/
"If you are gonna charge... CHARGE HARD!"

My Zipp 404s are 10 years old with more than a dozen Ironmans and probably twice as many halfs on them. Still true. I love 'em. Purchased a pair of 303's last year after getting blown around in Kona2000 too much. Both are much lighter than the Hed3s (over a pound!). If you do purchase the Hed wheels, make sure they are true before accepting them. When they first started making them we spun 5 pair of the Hed3s and couldn't find a single front or rear that was acceptable. That was also some time ago so they have probably improved their manufacturing process. Just double check. The Hed's didn't seem to slow DeBoom down in Kona this year. Happy shopping!

Something to consider in your decision making process: I view wheel performance as a "triad" of three performance attributes: Weight, Durability and Aerodynamics. You and I (me to a lesser degree because I own a triathlon bike store and am unencumbered by that distraction known as "a life")have to own wheels in the real world, in other words, we will probably own only one set of race wheels which we have to use in all environments, race course, weather conditions, travel situations, etc. With that in mind aerodynamics are at best 1/3rd of the equation. All race wheels provide some degree of aerodynamic benefit over "standard" box section rims with 28-32 round wire spokes. The greater question may be, how long do you intend to own them, what are your most important events- are they hilly or flat? Having said all that it is hard to go wrong with any Zipp product, but Hed is excellent too.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

What about the Mavic Cosmic Carbone wheels? It seems to me that it's between the 404's and the Mavic's for my money. No doubt the Hed 3s are fast, but the pro peleton is riddled with Mavic Carbone wheel sets. Anyone done a good comparison?

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Adam Duncan
New York, NY

Yup. I have two sets of Cosmic Carbone SSCs (one 700c and one a very rare last year's 650c, not many even imported or built). Good wheel but too heavy compared to Zipp. I generally don't race on them too often. They look cool though, which doesn't count for much in the grand scheme of things. I think Hellriegel won Ironman on Casmic Carbones though. He could have won on two sewer lids.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I own five H3's. Two are actualy Specialized thread on hubs.They won't go away.Very durable.Converted these over to track wheels.Versatile too.A little heavier but lite weight is over rated.

A third option you should look at is the Corima. The Corima Aero(front wheel), and the 4 spoke(back wheel) make for a very fast set up! Or a faster set up is a 4 spoke(front) and a disc(back). They are stiffer and more durable than the zipps or the Heds. I hear to many stories of zipps breaking down in the middle of a race. Corima is a bit more expensive but in my opinion well worth it. They are the Rolex of wheels!

I asked a similar question in another group:
I also looked at race wheels and compared HEDs and Zipps. A Zipp 404 wheelset is about U$1200 and a HED Alps set U$900. Are Zipp 404 and Hed Alps about the same? What is the difference (or why are the Zipps more expensive)? Has anyone experience with both wheels.
I hear/read more about Zipp 404 than HED Alps. But I saw that some wellknown triathletes ride HED Alps (Chirs McCormack, Tim DeBoom).

Which wheels (including H3) would you prefer for not or sligthly windy races (olympic to IM).

Felix

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http://www.weilenmann.ch.vu

This may or may not apply to your question but you need to consider the braking surface.It's kind of a bite changing pads all the time.All Hed wheels have alu. braking surface.

             You're looking at two very aero wheelsets. The Hed wheels weigh a good deal more than the Zipps, but the Zipps cost a whole lot more than the Heds. If you don't care about weight, get the Heds. If you ride hilly or turny (you'll have to accelerate those heavy suckers) courses, you'll wish you had the Zipps. If you shop wisely, you can find great deals on the Zipps, I got mine last year at this time for $700, new! Advertised on rec.sport.triathlon

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

Thanks to everyone who has posted the info on wheels.

One more wheel question: I have been told that the Cane Creek Carbon wheels use the Zipp rims. Anyone know whether this is true or not?

I have been told Cane Creek uses the Zipp rim and it really looks like it. I have a pair of Cane Creeks on order and should be in in about a week or two. I will try to let you know when I see then for real. Another wheel to look at that I believe uses the Zipp rim is the American Classic carbon wheelsets.

        I read somewhere, I think in Triathlete Mag, that the rims on the Cane Creek whels are made by Zipp but don't have the Zipp side bulge. The CC hubs should be an improvement though, the Zipp rear is the loudest thing around, it sounds like a two stroke motor when freewheeling downhill!

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

The new Zipp hubs are a huge improvement.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I saw the Cane Creek Aros wheels and it looks like they use the 404 rims. They had the same bulge profile and all. Looks like a real nice wheel.

consider the pedigree of the hed3 wheel. dupont spent millions creating this wheel. they gave it to specialized, which had a hard time selling it because it just wasn't a good thematic fit for that company.

hed rushed to get it, because in its own, and in everyone else's, wind tunnel tests it was consistently the fastest non-disc tested. always. always. add to that the extra work that hed has done to this wheel, working to make it lighter and truer.

as a result, the fastest teams--the ones which really do study this stuff--like postal and once, ride this wheel, and ride if for free.

i love zipp wheels, but a serious shopper ought not to ignore the obvious before making a decision.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hello Tom Demerly and All,

About 17 years later and the buzz is still about wheels .... is that cool or what?

Current counter-intuitive thinking in wheel design .... fatter is fastter??



https://www.forbes.com/...wheels/#2178c8431f63

Excerpts:

Perhaps surprisingly, the new designs becoming common in the industry are fatter than previous ones, yet wind tunnel tests confirm these wider wheel rims are more aero.

As well as wider rims, tires have also been getting fatter in recent years. In the 1970s, pro riders shook their bones to bits by riding with almost-solid 19mm-wide tires, assuming that the narrower and harder the tire the greater the speed.

Recent testing of “rolling resistance” has found that wider, softer tires are, in fact, faster, as well as offering more comfort and—critically—more traction.

Tires have therefore been getting wider, and riders no longer demand rock-solid air pressures.

Until recently most pro riders—and most serious amateurs—rode on 23mm tires, pumped up to 100psi or more. Many now prefer tires up to 28mm wide, especially now that wind tunnel and rolling resistance testing is showing that wider softer tires aren’t necessarily slower tires.



https://engineerstalk.mavic.com/...dynamic-performance/


In the very specific case of Hawaii, this simulation showed that the total disparity between the CXR80 and its competitor was around 2:30 minutes over the 180 km cycling leg of the Ironman. This is about the same as the difference between Open category finishing times, so the choice of material is crucial for events like this.

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Holy thread revival batman! Get the hed3 and be fast in any condition!

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

 

I used to ride a Nimble Crosswind, a competitor to the Hed 3. In Nimble's advertising, (unbiased of course!), they claimed the Crosswind was faster, lighter weight. I remember the two page ads in Triathlete and Triathlon magazine. I liked the wheel except for it being tubular only. For years now I have heard rumors of the the company being resurrected.

http://www.nimble.net/



I think this may a record for bringing a thread to life, 17 years!


.

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Once, I was fast. But I got over it.

I wanted a set of those Nimbles. Definitely the coolest wheels I ever saw. Didn't they do a red, white and blue version for the Atlanta Olympics?

I have and USE my set of Nimbles still to this day. In fact, racing on the front one this weekend.

Nimble factory in Austin burned up years back, and David said he wasn't going to rebuild the factory. So, if there is a rumor that David is bringing Nimble back, that would be pretty cool.

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Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice