Lionel Sander's swim meet

Triathlon Forum
284

Good thing you’re not a coach because no one improves with a fixed mindset.

Tim

Hah you couldn’t be more wrong about me. I grind it out BECAUSE I don’t have a fixed mindset. But I’m also realistic - after yeras of this, you’re going to hit massively diminishing returns. Which is exactly what LS and SL are running into. I’m nowhere near as good as them so I def have more on the table, but given my 15-20k/wk training load, it’s about as good as it’s going to get with the bike-run that I’m also doing. That’s not defeatist, its just realistic. Doesn’t mean I dont try and eke out every gain out of every stroke, and I mix it up regularly to make sure I’m not in a training rut.

I just don’t conflate make small, sometimes miniscule gains, vs race-changing gains. And yes, I’m aware that all the miniscule gains CAN add up to a big one. I’m unfortunately still betting against that happening in the seasoned case of LS and less so in the case of SL. I do hope I’m wrong, but clearly other really good swim coaches haven’t been able to help him make that jump, so it seems more likely than not that this will be the case for them.

Do you actually swim 20 k per week? Why? Unless you are at these guys level or higher, I really think most of us regardless of talent could get away with 6-10 k and still be in ~22 min 1500 LCM shape. Quality over quantity is a better. mindset.

285

Do you actually swim 20 k per week? Why? Unless you are at these guys level or higher, I really think most of us regardless of talent could get away with 6-10 k and still be in ~22 min 1500 LCM shape. Quality over quantity is a better. mindset.

Yeah, not all year, but I swam 18-20k/wk for most weeks since Jan, and have done similar blocks last year and the year before. Ya know, because I have to try everything before I just 'give up since some people around here keep wanting to tag me as the ‘giving up guy’ LOL.

I actually am nearly certain now that I’ve done it that I’d get very similar results in the swim portion of the triathlon just by swimming 7k/wk, hard. But not only have I come to enjoy swimming, but I’m leaning into relying on it to boost hi-end aerobic fitness and overall aerobic fitness (a la Purplepatch’s Matt Dixon on his podcasts) since it’s an injury free way to get that intensity and cardio, which at my middle age, is really important to avoid injuries. (Which I seem to be getting in increasing frequency after going really hard on race day in the run.)

I also honestly believe that even if my swim split itself doesn’t get a lot better with all that swimming, it’s leaving me with a stronger bike and run with that deeper swim background. At least for sure, my USAT scores are way better swimming north of 12k/wk than when I was doing it on 7k/wk even if my swim splits are only like 1-2 mins faster in Olys (really closer to 1min).

286

Yeah plus they’ll both be faster with wetsuits on. These seem like solid enough times for both of them. ~1:12/100y. I wonder how much time Sam’s faster opening 100 cost him later in the race & I wonder if Lionel purposefully locked into a consistent pace from the start. In a 70.3 Sam’s opening 100 could very well have him on the right feet & put him ahead of Lionel if he’s starting more conservatively.

And LS didn’t wear the form goggles so good pacing by him it looks like.

287

And LS didn’t wear the form goggles so good pacing by him it looks like. //

Dont believe they are allowed in swim meets. And having his last 100 as his fastest is most likely a good sign that he went out super easy and controlled. Like many have said, really need context before drawing any conclusions. But watching the Sam video, seems like it was his goal to hit 20 minutes, so he was right there.

And to whoever said that race jammers are worth 3 seconds a 100, maybe against board shorts, but perhaps a 1/2 second from other race style legal wear. The full compression full suits of the suit era were only worth about a second a 100 for most of the pro guys, some a little more, some a little less. So taking away 2/3 of that fabric and compression is certainly gonna make it much less of an advantage…

It’s possible that race jammers give some 2+ minute per 100m folks 3 seconds, but these guys are not that…

288

For bigger or slightly chubbier masters swimmers a super tight full suit did maybe 2 seconds per 100. What do you think? The open water suit does about that now from what I can gather

289

And LS didn’t wear the form goggles so good pacing by him it looks like. //

Dont believe they are allowed in swim meets. And having his last 100 as his fastest is most likely a good sign that he went out super easy and controlled. Like many have said, really need context before drawing any conclusions. But watching the Sam video, seems like it was his goal to hit 20 minutes, so he was right there.

And to whoever said that race jammers are worth 3 seconds a 100, maybe against board shorts, but perhaps a 1/2 second from other race style legal wear. The full compression full suits of the suit era were only worth about a second a 100 for most of the pro guys, some a little more, some a little less. So taking away 2/3 of that fabric and compression is certainly gonna make it much less of an advantage…

It’s possible that race jammers give some 2+ minute per 100m folks 3 seconds, but these guys are not that…

Doesn’t make sense that tech suits cost AU $1200 if they only make 1/2s difference? Are parents really paying that for their kids for 0.5s of an improvement? And these suits don’t last long. Maybe it’s different for us gumby athletes. My openwater suit feels incredible, superquick and my swimskin , not as quick, but also feels great in the water. 1/2s over 100m is 1/4s over 50m so in other words negligible. In theory you would put it on and feel no different and swim no different. And if a $1200 tech-suit gives you 1/4s over 50m, what does a $300 tech-suit give you 1/8s? GTN did a bathers v swimskin and Fraser had only a 3s gain with wearing a swimskin. That’s not even 0.5s per 50m…If that’s the benefit of wearing a swimskin why would anyone bother paying $400 for a swimskin?

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290

And LS didn’t wear the form goggles so good pacing by him it looks like. //

Dont believe they are allowed in swim meets. And having his last 100 as his fastest is most likely a good sign that he went out super easy and controlled. Like many have said, really need context before drawing any conclusions. But watching the Sam video, seems like it was his goal to hit 20 minutes, so he was right there.

And to whoever said that race jammers are worth 3 seconds a 100, maybe against board shorts, but perhaps a 1/2 second from other race style legal wear. The full compression full suits of the suit era were only worth about a second a 100 for most of the pro guys, some a little more, some a little less. So taking away 2/3 of that fabric and compression is certainly gonna make it much less of an advantage…

It’s possible that race jammers give some 2+ minute per 100m folks 3 seconds, but these guys are not that…

Doesn’t make sense that tech suits cost AU $1200 if they only make 1/2s difference? Are parents really paying that for their kids for 0.5s of an improvement? And these suits don’t last long. Maybe it’s different for us gumby athletes. My openwater suit feels incredible, superquick and my swimskin , not as quick, but also feels great in the water. 1/2s over 100m is 1/4s over 50m so in other words negligible. In theory you would put it on and feel no different and swim no different. And if a $1200 tech-suit gives you 1/4s over 50m, what does a $300 tech-suit give you 1/8s? GTN did a bathers v swimskin and Fraser had only a 3s gain with wearing a swimskin. That’s not even 0.5s per 50m…If that’s the benefit of wearing a swimskin why would anyone bother paying $400 for a swimskin?

Were the 6 sec gains over 400m or??? In what distance pool or in OW??? I’ve swum in a long john wettie, and of course in just a Speedo brief, but never in a swimskin so I am genuinely curious. :slight_smile:

291

And LS didn’t wear the form goggles so good pacing by him it looks like. //

Dont believe they are allowed in swim meets. And having his last 100 as his fastest is most likely a good sign that he went out super easy and controlled. Like many have said, really need context before drawing any conclusions. But watching the Sam video, seems like it was his goal to hit 20 minutes, so he was right there.

And to whoever said that race jammers are worth 3 seconds a 100, maybe against board shorts, but perhaps a 1/2 second from other race style legal wear. The full compression full suits of the suit era were only worth about a second a 100 for most of the pro guys, some a little more, some a little less. So taking away 2/3 of that fabric and compression is certainly gonna make it much less of an advantage…

It’s possible that race jammers give some 2+ minute per 100m folks 3 seconds, but these guys are not that…

Doesn’t make sense that tech suits cost AU $1200 if they only make 1/2s difference? Are parents really paying that for their kids for 0.5s of an improvement? And these suits don’t last long. Maybe it’s different for us gumby athletes. My openwater suit feels incredible, superquick and my swimskin , not as quick, but also feels great in the water. 1/2s over 100m is 1/4s over 50m so in other words negligible. In theory you would put it on and feel no different and swim no different. And if a $1200 tech-suit gives you 1/4s over 50m, what does a $300 tech-suit give you 1/8s? GTN did a bathers v swimskin and Fraser had only a 3s gain with wearing a swimskin. That’s not even 0.5s per 50m…If that’s the benefit of wearing a swimskin why would anyone bother paying $400 for a swimskin?

Were the 6 sec gains over 400m or??? In what distance pool or in OW??? I’ve swum in a long john wettie, and of course in just a Speedo brief, but never in a swimskin so I am genuinely curious. :slight_smile:

From GTN - that was in a 50m pool, 400m. My arena OWS suit is amazing. Takes 20mins to put on and costs $500 but feels very different in the water. I think I held 1.35min/100m pace for 10k in that suit, 2h.39. Not a chance I’d come anywhere close to that in bathers. A recent sprint I ended up wearing my swimskin even though wetsuit legal and was 21/256 in the swim. For me wettie is faster, but swimskin not far off and in this race run to t1 was longer so reckon swimskin was good call. But if you look at the data and tests online, apparently you save 5/6s wearing a swimskin and it takes 4-5s to take it off? $400 to save 1s? Why bother?

292

And LS didn’t wear the form goggles so good pacing by him it looks like. //

Dont believe they are allowed in swim meets. And having his last 100 as his fastest is most likely a good sign that he went out super easy and controlled. Like many have said, really need context before drawing any conclusions. But watching the Sam video, seems like it was his goal to hit 20 minutes, so he was right there.

And to whoever said that race jammers are worth 3 seconds a 100, maybe against board shorts, but perhaps a 1/2 second from other race style legal wear. The full compression full suits of the suit era were only worth about a second a 100 for most of the pro guys, some a little more, some a little less. So taking away 2/3 of that fabric and compression is certainly gonna make it much less of an advantage…

It’s possible that race jammers give some 2+ minute per 100m folks 3 seconds, but these guys are not that…

Doesn’t make sense that tech suits cost AU $1200 if they only make 1/2s difference? Are parents really paying that for their kids for 0.5s of an improvement? And these suits don’t last long. Maybe it’s different for us gumby athletes. My openwater suit feels incredible, superquick and my swimskin , not as quick, but also feels great in the water. 1/2s over 100m is 1/4s over 50m so in other words negligible. In theory you would put it on and feel no different and swim no different. And if a $1200 tech-suit gives you 1/4s over 50m, what does a $300 tech-suit give you 1/8s? GTN did a bathers v swimskin and Fraser had only a 3s gain with wearing a swimskin. That’s not even 0.5s per 50m…If that’s the benefit of wearing a swimskin why would anyone bother paying $400 for a swimskin?

Were the 6 sec gains over 400m or??? In what distance pool or in OW??? I’ve swum in a long john wettie, and of course in just a Speedo brief, but never in a swimskin so I am genuinely curious. :slight_smile:

From GTN - that was in a 50m pool, 400m. My arena OWS suit is amazing. Takes 20mins to put on and costs $500 but feels very different in the water. A recent sprint I ended up wearing my swimskin even though wetsuit legal and was 21/256 in the swim. For me wettie is faster, but swimskin not far off and in this race run to t1 was longer so reckon swimskin was good call. But if you look at the data and tests online, you save 5/6s wearing a swimskin and it takes the same time to take off? Why bother?

So about 1.5 sec/100 m. I figured these skins must be worth 1 or 2 sec/100 m since all the top OW swimmers wear them in races. Thanks for the info!!!

293

6-10k/week seems low for a 22min 1500 if you don’t have a swimming background. If you grew up swimming & have gone well under that then, sure, I would expect that to be enough maintenance to be able to get it done. If you’re a few years in & you’re swimming 2-3 times/week with that volume I doubt 22min would come naturally.

294

6-10k/week seems low for a 22min 1500 if you don’t have a swimming background. If you grew up swimming & have gone well under that then, sure, I would expect that to be enough maintenance to be able to get it done. If you’re a few years in & you’re swimming 2-3 times/week with that volume I doubt 22min would come naturally.

6k/week ok I agree… that is pushing it and maybe it only works for those of us who have been several minutes below a 22 min 1500 LCM at some point in our lives.

10k/week, I disagree, I know plenty of adult onset swimmers on 21-22 minute shape (56-63 min IM swims). 2 x 4k high quality swimming sessions plus a third 2 k swim. That is a lot of volume for most AGs.

20k/week, is 5 x 4 km/week sessions, 6 x 3-4 km/sessions. That is a ton of volume for a standalone masters swimmer, let alone an AG triathlete. I only know of juniors, pros and “AG-pros” in my area swimming those volumes. I also see the likes of Frederic Funk on Strava swimming that much.

295

Well are people cherry picking, and saying they swim 20km but they only do that in a three week period before an event?

When people say what the weekly volume is it tends to be exaggerated

20k is the amount and what many of the top masters level swimmers I know do. Maybe a bit more sometimes maybe a bit less. But they’re just always there abouts unless sick injured or travelling

That’s 3 or so endurance sessions some swimming some pull paddles, a sprint session and a threshold session

However others are more into the long distance marathon swims and do 10-15k more, during preparation periods. Mentally I think some of the former really good swimmers find that hard to do

Really if someone just raced masters sprints it is counter productive to swim that much and should be doing shorter faster and more strength

296

20k per week is easy to get on 6-7 swims per week. It’s a habit, I get up and hit the pool at 7, every day. If it’s off season I can go at lunch for a double especially if legs are dead from bike run.

But yes it’s no silver bullet. There are guys that beat the pants off me in the swim who only swim like 5 times before a race and that’s it all season. (They were good swimmers previously though)

297

Let me explain why swimming 6 to 8k a week is a very bad idea if you want to perform at a high level in a triathlon. One summer between my first and second year of medical school all I did was train, race and about 10 hours of lab work. I was consistently training 20k a week of swimming, 200 miles of biking, and 35-40 minutes of biking. I laid down some great results, including a 20 minute, 56min 40k, 34 min 10k results. After med school started up again, I became very busy and had no time to keep up my volume of training, but I had qualified for an invite race with free hotel etc so I decided to go anyway. My swimming consisted of about 3-6k for 6 or 7 weeks before the race, I ended up still swimming a 20 minute 1500, but I was so gassed from the effort that I biked 59 and ran 37 minutes, which was way below my ability at the time. You want to come out of the swim feeling “pretty” good, which requires a lot of volume for anyone but an ex elite swimmer who has millions of yards under their belt. You will never be able to bike or run to your ability without having great swim endurance.

298

Let me explain why swimming 6 to 8k a week is a very bad idea if you want to perform at a high level in a triathlon. One summer between my first and second year of medical school all I did was train, race and about 10 hours of lab work. I was consistently training 20k a week of swimming, 200 miles of biking, and 35-40 minutes of biking. I laid down some great results, including a 20 minute, 56min 40k, 34 min 10k results. After med school started up again, I became very busy and had no time to keep up my volume of training, but I had qualified for an invite race with free hotel etc so I decided to go anyway. My swimming consisted of about 3-6k for 6 or 7 weeks before the race, I ended up still swimming a 20 minute 1500, but I was so gassed from the effort that I biked 59 and ran 37 minutes, which was way below my ability at the time. You want to come out of the swim feeling “pretty” good, which requires a lot of volume for anyone but an ex elite swimmer who has millions of yards under their belt. You will never be able to bike or run to your ability without having great swim endurance.

This has been my experience also; you need to be able to feel like a 1500m swim is just a good warm-up for the B and R. :slight_smile:

299

Let me explain why swimming 6 to 8k a week is a very bad idea if you want to perform at a high level in a triathlon. One summer between my first and second year of medical school all I did was train, race and about 10 hours of lab work. I was consistently training 20k a week of swimming, 200 miles of biking, and 35-40 minutes of biking. I laid down some great results, including a 20 minute, 56min 40k, 34 min 10k results. After med school started up again, I became very busy and had no time to keep up my volume of training, but I had qualified for an invite race with free hotel etc so I decided to go anyway. My swimming consisted of about 3-6k for 6 or 7 weeks before the race, I ended up still swimming a 20 minute 1500, but I was so gassed from the effort that I biked 59 and ran 37 minutes, which was way below my ability at the time. You want to come out of the swim feeling “pretty” good, which requires a lot of volume for anyone but an ex elite swimmer who has millions of yards under their belt. You will never be able to bike or run to your ability without having great swim endurance.

This is all 100% relatable and a great take for an AG. Lionel is not reading AG tho. The penalty for an AG losing 5 mom on the swim is slingshotting through back markers until you reach the front. For a pro 5 min list in the swim probably means missing the lead pack and starting the run either 20 min or at a 20w higher average.

There’s a reason pros focus so much on the swim. Those tactics don’t apply when AG rules are in place.

300

Let me explain why swimming 6 to 8k a week is a very bad idea if you want to perform at a high level in a triathlon. One summer between my first and second year of medical school all I did was train, race and about 10 hours of lab work. I was consistently training 20k a week of swimming, 200 miles of biking, and 35-40 minutes of biking. I laid down some great results, including a 20 minute, 56min 40k, 34 min 10k results. After med school started up again, I became very busy and had no time to keep up my volume of training, but I had qualified for an invite race with free hotel etc so I decided to go anyway. My swimming consisted of about 3-6k for 6 or 7 weeks before the race, I ended up still swimming a 20 minute 1500, but I was so gassed from the effort that I biked 59 and ran 37 minutes, which was way below my ability at the time. You want to come out of the swim feeling “pretty” good, which requires a lot of volume for anyone but an ex elite swimmer who has millions of yards under their belt. You will never be able to bike or run to your ability without having great swim endurance.

I agree you need some volume ( more by time then distance as everyone swims different speeds, a beginner takes 50 min for 2 km top swimmer under 28 min, so a beginner at 8 km is a expert at 17 km) but you are comparing races and times which don’t really tell a true story, the race courses and dynamics change , take out speed and course measures and environment.

but do you think if you swam that day 21 min you would have made up the 3 min on the bike and 3 minutes on the run and been 5 minutes ahead of the finish time ???

Did you lose total fitness or just the top swim speed and overload to early.

301

Let me explain why swimming 6 to 8k a week is a very bad idea if you want to perform at a high level in a triathlon. One summer between my first and second year of medical school all I did was train, race and about 10 hours of lab work. I was consistently training 20k a week of swimming, 200 miles of biking, and 35-40 minutes of biking. I laid down some great results, including a 20 minute, 56min 40k, 34 min 10k results. After med school started up again, I became very busy and had no time to keep up my volume of training, but I had qualified for an invite race with free hotel etc so I decided to go anyway. My swimming consisted of about 3-6k for 6 or 7 weeks before the race, I ended up still swimming a 20 minute 1500, but I was so gassed from the effort that I biked 59 and ran 37 minutes, which was way below my ability at the time. You want to come out of the swim feeling “pretty” good, which requires a lot of volume for anyone but an ex elite swimmer who has millions of yards under their belt. You will never be able to bike or run to your ability without having great swim endurance.

Could it simply be that you simply were in 21 min shape and by pushing to 20 min you went into the red zone too much hence compromised the rest of the day? And what was your bike and running mileage compared to your PB days? It does seem to me as if you were fit but not PB fit. Work schedule is for many of us a bit more restrictive for training than school schedule.

I am not saying that swimming 20 k per week is a bad idea to perform at your best. But when someone like lightheir says that they swim 20 k per week and they are nowhere near a 20 min 1,500 m then it seems to me as if there is a quality issue somewhere.

302

general comment about those race paces they did.

We saw Sam has more take out speed, which is why he grabs groups better then Lionel in 70.3 races usually.

But then we see Lionel has better “skill speed pace” which everyone has x pace once tired you cant go faster and just hold it for ever as you are stuck at your “skill level”.

one race of course but interesting

for example everyone goes x for 3 min then they basically hold their skill not there effort the harder they try it doesn’t matter they are stuck at x pace for the next 27-65 min.

303

I just want to make sure I understand your post

Sam has more speed but less skill

Lionel has less speed but more skill

The skill being the ability to hold a higher sustained effort

Well yes and also swimming fast is a skill.

Really good Ironman swimmers have both - can go out fast and a high aerobic speed. This is what people who have swam with amberger say in training. They can hold him for a fast 100 or 150 but when they then settle back into longer efforts or aerobic freestyle, his baseline is just so much higher. And then off he goes - bye bye