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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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But what I'm proposing is already being done every weekend at local events. Tons of race companies have open waves and AG waves. You race and are scored based on the category you pick. Race open- you don't get AG awards. Race AG you may miss out on the "best" competition but you get scored according to your AG.


I'm not trying to recreate the wheel. It's already being used successful at tons of races across the country.


(you and several others including myself have already mentioned that.....not sure why it's that complicated...it's only complicated cus it'll never happen at "AG" nats an event that is based on racing your AG...IE that is the only "waves" that want to be created).


So this is all theoretical debate, they aren't going to create an open wave and force the top X to race in it, they aren't going to create an open wave and exclude you from AG awards, the current setup is the fairest for the individual AG's, which is the whole point of the championship- only the overall placings are "unfair" (and which we are debating a better solution).

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 10, 22 7:46
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [kristofredei] [ In reply to ]
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kristofredei wrote:
Had a blast at the Oly race and pumped to hear it might end up back in Milwaukee again next year!

Question on the rolldown for worlds slots in case anyone's in the know - I was just outside the rolldown window for my AG but realized after I got home that I'd forgotten about the age-up rule and might actually be in the mix in the aged-up group. Has anyone seen aged-up results yet or are they planning to post them? Did I miss out on my (slim) chance by not hitting the lounge/awards ceremony on the day of and letting them know I'm interested, or do they still contact people regardless?

Hard to say... in the Oly they took 18 and the Sprint took 8 with the age up adjustments. Someone at the lounge had it pulled up on their phone, so it is available somewhere.

Either way if you're interested in a Worlds slot, I'd e-mail USAT to be sure.

In terms of my own race, starting at almost 9:30 was tough for me on Saturday. I don't do well in that sort of weather and I went around 8 minutes slower and fell off the podium... was in 10th off the bike after clawing through 20'sh spots on the bike... my worst swim at this venue for some reason. My mantra in my head went something like... 'don't stop' during the run. The Super Sprint went a little better for me and found the podium there.

Good weekend overall.
Last edited by: xeon: Aug 10, 22 8:39
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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In the Team USA lounge for Olympic race USAT was allowing the top 18 per AG to indicate they would or would not be attending 2023 Pontevedra worlds. They said anyone outside top 18 would be contacted in the future re roll downs.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [kristofredei] [ In reply to ]
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Aged-up results are posted here now: https://www.teamusa.org/...hampionships/results
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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If you go beyond just wave 1 being based on ability (have the highest X USAT scores in wave 1, the next highest X in wave 2, etc.) then you solve the problem of anyone starting 2 hours apart (or even 15 minutes apart) from anyone else that will have a remotely similar finishing time.

The person in wave 20 going 3:15 isn't going to complain that they got 300th in their age group just because they started 2 hours later than the person that went 1:55 and won their age group and went in wave 1. Sure, the person in wave 1 may have had better conditions but it didn't affect their placing relative to the person in wave 20. The person in wave 2 going 2:05 also isn't going to complain that they got 10th but would have won if they went 10 minutes earlier in wave 1. They had practically the same race conditions as the wave 1 winner who started 10 minutes earlier. See?

This practically guarantees that everyone races against all their closest competitors, practically guarantees that the first to cross the line is the overall winner, and still makes age group results for all age groups fair.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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dcpinsonn wrote:
I'd rather keep the current system if something is proposed that doesn't get all of the top athletes competing against one another.

Agree. It is pretty good how it is now. The only way to improve it is to guarantee all the top athletes going head to head while preserving eligibility for age group awards and worlds slots for everyone.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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Good to know about roll downs. I just recalled writing a deposit check on site in 2014.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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In theory that sounds good but I assume you would have to base it on the previous year's USAT rankings because USAT has proven that it is incapable of keeping their ranking system up to date? You would think that the race they put on just four and five days ago would be entered into their own ranking system but amazingly the results are nowhere to be found. Under results it indicates results are not available yet. To add further insult to injury their own tracking system app is no longer working. It says Congrats to all Participants and underneath it says upcoming. When you tap on top finishers - nothing. USAT is woefully inept at a very basic task unfortunately.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
But what I'm proposing is already being done every weekend at local events. Tons of race companies have open waves and AG waves. You race and are scored based on the category you pick. Race open- you don't get AG awards. Race AG you may miss out on the "best" competition but you get scored according to your AG.


I'm not trying to recreate the wheel. It's already being used successful at tons of races across the country.


(you and several others including myself have already mentioned that.....not sure why it's that complicated...it's only complicated cus it'll never happen at "AG" nats an event that is based on racing your AG...IE that is the only "waves" that want to be created).


So this is all theoretical debate, they aren't going to create an open wave and force the top X to race in it, they aren't going to create an open wave and exclude you from AG awards, the current setup is the fairest for the individual AG's, which is the whole point of the championship- only the overall placings are "unfair" (and which we are debating a better solution).

It's already being done every weekend, but it is broken and doesn't accomplish the goal (for some people) of getting all the top competitors racing head-to-head because entry into the wave is voluntary. Some people don't know about it, some people think it is for professionals only, some people would rather get a podium picture from winning their age group, etc. It's all fine, but I think there is room for improvement in triathlon to create more compelling head-to-head competition.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, it would ideally be based on your latest results but you're right USAT has a ways to go in that department.

The results are available here FWIW: https://www.teamusa.org/...hampionships/results
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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Ah, your advocating for the ole desert dude "category" based system based on ability and not age for racing (he's been suggesting that for years and likely rightfully so). I just don't think you can "force" people into a time/finish based wave start, at an event that is based on racing individuals in your own age category *at the same time*.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 11, 22 14:53
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Ha, yeah I'll always be advocating for a category system in triathlon! But my Nationals proposal is a step back from that, just organizing waves by ability but still having age groups.

I still really don't think the top and bottom of an age group care if they start at the same time, but maybe others feel differently. If they did waves by ability next year, I think the majority of reactions would be somewhere between "sweet!" and "whatever" with little complaining.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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Funny enough I just saw this article on triathlete magazine about the cat system.

I "credit" desert dude with the idea because I know he's been talking about it for years (I've been on ST since summer of '08) and he's the 1st person in the industry that I ever saw talk about it.

https://www.triathlete.com/culture/a-case-for-cycling-categories-in-triathlon/


More realistic than overhauling the way USAT does age groups or time trialing would be to require any USAT-sanctioned race to offer an elite age group wave—which has happened sporadically at short-course events in the past. This wave would allow top male and female age group athletes to race the way they really want to – against others of the same ability and truly battling it out for the overall amateur title.
Yount is all for it. He agreed that having top age groupers race against each other in one wave can be beneficial for the athletes, the race, and the sport – but it takes a conversation to make this change.
“Race directors, especially local ones, are usually open to suggestions about how they can improve their races,” Yount said. “Don’t be afraid to approach a race director and enter into that problem-solving type of conversation about how to make a race more attractive to top age groupers. You may be surprised at how willing a race director is to accommodate your ask.”






Essentially they think as Tim Yount was quoted in the article, to make an elite AG wave to start (similiar to what many races already do with the open wave we've already discussed...it's just not "required" to enter unless you want too).





Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 13, 22 17:57
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Funny enough I just saw this article on triathlete magazine about the cat system.

I "credit" desert dude with the idea because I know he's been talking about it for years (I've been on ST since summer of '08) and he's the 1st person in the industry that I ever saw talk about it.

https://www.triathlete.com/culture/a-case-for-cycling-categories-in-triathlon/


I can remember talking to someone at USAT about a category system a long, long time ago. I had sketched out how it would work for upgrades, Pro & AG etc.
When I talked with someone at USAT about that it landed with the loudest thud I've ever heard.


Along with that I had also sketched out a tier system for long course races. It allowed the 2 biggest race companies in the world each a top tier event (IMH & Roth). It set up a development pathway for LC pros so that 1st & second year pros could learn to race while still getting an opportunity to go head to head with the best in the world now and then, insured that the biggest names would be racing each other for the biggest prize purses, made several more events marquee events (companies could rotate these if they wanted), set up a system to insure that there was an opportunity for new pros to develop so they might stay in the sport more than 2 years

That also landed with a very loud thud when I presented it to a race company.

I got the feeling that both were more interested in short term (1-2yr) vs developing a product that could lead to long(er) term greater success

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [piratetri] [ In reply to ]
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It appears USAT has added an "Open" race to the 2023 AGNC schedule for both olympic and sprint distance in addition to the Age Group race. It requires qualification which makes me think this is more of an "elite" or "overall" competition for the top athletes.

2023 USA Triathlon Nationals (teamusa.org)
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [playguy] [ In reply to ]
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5430tri wrote:
Brooks - I so remember that elite super sprint in Milwaukee. Our main reason for that "showcase event" was to have as many age-group athletes witness how cool draft legal super sprint can be. Further, as President of USAT at the time, I proposed we keep AGNC at Milwaukee permanently/indefinitely. It had rave reviews, centrally located in the US, easy to get to, and a very welcoming community. Make it like Hilton Head was back in the day. This was nixed when they built the new arena/stadium downtown, and we had to go somewhere else (Cleveland); but, now, I hope USAT considers making Milwaukee "The Home of AGNC." I also love adding the youth & juniors!


Am I the only one who did not care for this bike course?
Aside from the first loop out to the right, everything else what riddled with potholes and massive gaps/crack/seams.
I raced in MKE in 2021, 2022, and the fact the event came back for 2023 is actually the reason why I'm not going to register again.

If USAT would consider rerouting the second 2/3's of the bike course, basically all of the pothole'd concrete going up the hill and to the right (after the underpass)... maybe a more rideable course
Last edited by: MJGuswiler: Nov 2, 22 11:51
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MJGuswiler] [ In reply to ]
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I said the exact same thing in '21. I was met with quite a few differing opinions... Personally, that bike course is incredible rough and it's hard to put your head down and go.

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [piratetri] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting observation, but I think that's a typo with the * there.

Digging further, there is an open race that doesn't require qualification.

https://www.teamusa.org/...8EEEC7D158C&_z=z

Olympic-distance Qualification$195
Sprint distance Qualification$125
Time to Tri Open Olympic$195
Time to Tri Open Sprint$125
Open Water Swim Competition$45
Last edited by: jwmott: Nov 2, 22 13:31
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MJGuswiler] [ In reply to ]
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Huh, I don't recall thinking that the bike course was rough. Certainly the bridge has those big bumps but that's about all I can remember. A good portion of the highway after the bridge was super smooth. Maybe that second out and back section after the bridge to the last 180 was a little bumpy?
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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That entire portion after you go over the bridge is loaded with pot holes, at least from what I remember. It's not typical pavement, it's like white-ish concrete for miles.

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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cloy wrote:
That entire portion after you go over the bridge is loaded with pot holes, at least from what I remember. It's not typical pavement, it's like white-ish concrete for miles.

Ah, you raced in 2021 but not this year, right? The entire highway section from the bridge to the 180 by the airport to the turn onto Howard, and then again once you turn back onto the highway after the Howard/Lake out and back up to the bridge is completely brand new perfect pavement. See Google street view (https://goo.gl/maps/iqGjC8qcm2shKJYT6). The Howard/Lake out and back is probably the worst section, but is really not too bad usually looking like this: https://goo.gl/maps/e7L3ABiFeKaYLJS49.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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jwmott wrote:
cloy wrote:
That entire portion after you go over the bridge is loaded with pot holes, at least from what I remember. It's not typical pavement, it's like white-ish concrete for miles.


Ah, you raced in 2021 but not this year, right? The entire highway section from the bridge to the 180 by the airport to the turn onto Howard, and then again once you turn back onto the highway after the Howard/Lake out and back up to the bridge is completely brand new perfect pavement. See Google street view (https://goo.gl/maps/iqGjC8qcm2shKJYT6). The Howard/Lake out and back is probably the worst section, but is really not too bad usually looking like this: https://goo.gl/maps/e7L3ABiFeKaYLJS49.
'

Sign me up for 2023! That looks great!

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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No, the course is quite nice. Chicago is a mess but Milwaukee is pretty smooth and fast.

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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cloy wrote:
jwmott wrote:
cloy wrote:
That entire portion after you go over the bridge is loaded with pot holes, at least from what I remember. It's not typical pavement, it's like white-ish concrete for miles.


Ah, you raced in 2021 but not this year, right? The entire highway section from the bridge to the 180 by the airport to the turn onto Howard, and then again once you turn back onto the highway after the Howard/Lake out and back up to the bridge is completely brand new perfect pavement. See Google street view (https://goo.gl/maps/iqGjC8qcm2shKJYT6). The Howard/Lake out and back is probably the worst section, but is really not too bad usually looking like this: https://goo.gl/maps/e7L3ABiFeKaYLJS49.
'

Sign me up for 2023! That looks great!

Raced in 2022, will agree that the pavement after the bridge was fabulous, but as soon as you turn left it was the same as 2021 IMO.
Maybe they fix that section before the race as well?
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