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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [IronScholar] [ In reply to ]
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IronScholar wrote:
There was a second run split check though, which should have leveled things out a bit more, right? Based on my second run split, the predictor was still off a fair bit. It wasn't just the run though. My husband was at bike in talking to people, and that's where he heard most of the conversation about missing athletes.

Sunday...sure, changing everything could have thrown a wrench in it with tracking. One of my teammates was in male 40-44, and I think he was out on the bike before the tracker registered he even started. But it's currently 4:26pm on Monday and in the app, the female open sprint 40-59 wave is still showing "This race has not started yet." Um, it not only started, it's over. The data should be there.

Yeah, that's what I am getting at. Because the first split reader was too early on the course, the time to get to the second split is long so that shows a slow pace. The computer applies that slow pace to the distance from the second split to the end and thereby overestimates how long it will take to finish.

On the bike, I think the app does its estimate based on pace and distance. I do not think it takes into account that the last bike split is downhill (and on Saturday was downwind). I would expect a coach to know that the last leg is downwind/downhill, so no excuse there. But for casual observers I can see how they could miss someone coming in.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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First, I'll say that it is really not fair to compare times from Saturday's race between people who started at 7 and people who started at 9 as it did get hotter as the day went on.

This is a tough topic though because the right answer depends on how one views the importance of the multiple purposes of Age Group Nationals. On one hand, you could say it is the national championship and should prioritize a fair race to crown an overall national champion and overall podium. On the other hand, you could say it is an age group national championship and only needs to prioritize a fair race within each age group, which it did on Saturday as everyone in an age group started at the exact same time.

Where it gets messy is that this race is also used to decide World Triathlon championship slots. However, these are based on aged-up results (everyone gets a year added to their USAT age). This was especially advantageous for 34 year-olds like me. I started at 7:12am, but ~80% of my competition for worlds slots started at 9:05am. So, besides having different weather conditions, not everyone is racing head-to-head for worlds slots, which isn't ideal.

The other factor they consider is optimizing athlete density on the course, which is apparently how they came up with the wave schedule. This seems important too and I think they did a good job achieving good spacing on the course.

One approach that might work is to do the waves by ability level (they could use USAT scores to avoid the issues that come with self-seeding/time estimates), fastest to slowest. This ensures that the best athletes are racing head-to-head in wave 1 and everyone is at most 1 or 2 waves apart from their likely closest competitors in their age group which solves the weather difference issue. All awards can still be by age-group and this also mostly solves the age-up problem. This approach is likely bad for course crowding though. Going by age groups works well because they know there will be a pretty large variation in swim/bike speed throughout an age group. However, this is more or less how USAT Collegiate Nationals worked (10 years ago) with the faster athletes going in earlier waves and it seemed to work fine.

In general, I'm all for some sort of elite amateur category in triathlon, but it has to make sense within the context of qualifying for worlds, so unless World Triathlon adopts the category as well, I don't see it working well at USAT Nationals.

Anyways, this was an awesome event and I really hope it is back in Milwaukee again next year (and forever).
Last edited by: jwmott: Aug 8, 22 21:08
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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nyways, this was an awesome event and I really hope it is back in Milwaukee again next year (and forever).

——-
It will be there next year and also they are going to more of a “festival” approach by adding Youth and Junior Champs- DL youth/juniors as well as non-draft youth/juniors (which had previously been held for 10 years outside Cincinnati)

Which will be interesting as to when the actual races go off. I’m guessing DL events Friday and then MTR juniors potentially Saturday afternoon to take advantage of the AG athletes and getting a “crowd” for it.

8 years ago at AG Nats they did a pro “super sprint” on site at the AG venue. I kinda see something like that.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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Why not just have an open wave and by entering the open wave you forfeit AG classification and/or worlds slots. If that clause causes you to not race in said category- cool. In talking to many of the top overall places and their coaches, how many actually go to worlds vs use it as a chance to qualify for pro card or use it as opportunity to race the best in the country. For those athletes that’s the bigger draw than a worlds AG slot from talks of coaches and athletes I’ve been able to talk too.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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That’s interesting - my teammates were just talking about how cool it would be to have the youth races the same weekend on our drive home. They have two kids who raced last weekend In Ohio. Looks like they might get their wish!

I was so grateful to be able to race on Sunday, especially going to bed Saturday thinking it wasn’t happening. I prefer a mass start and wish I could have compared my time with last year, but ultimately it was just awesome to be able to compete.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
8 years ago at AG Nats they did a pro “super sprint” on site at the AG venue. I kinda see something like that.

I live tweeted that as I had an athlete or two racing there. IDK if you want to go back that far in my twitter timeline though, I sure don't haha

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Brooks - I so remember that elite super sprint in Milwaukee. Our main reason for that "showcase event" was to have as many age-group athletes witness how cool draft legal super sprint can be. Further, as President of USAT at the time, I proposed we keep AGNC at Milwaukee permanently/indefinitely. It had rave reviews, centrally located in the US, easy to get to, and a very welcoming community. Make it like Hilton Head was back in the day. This was nixed when they built the new arena/stadium downtown, and we had to go somewhere else (Cleveland); but, now, I hope USAT considers making Milwaukee "The Home of AGNC." I also love adding the youth & juniors!
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott &B_Doughtie ] [ In reply to ]
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jwmott wrote:
First, I'll say that it is really not fair to compare times from Saturday's race between people who started at 7 and people who started at 9 as it did get hotter as the day went on.

This is a tough topic though because the right answer depends on how one views the importance of the multiple purposes of Age Group Nationals. On one hand, you could say it is the national championship and should prioritize a fair race to crown an overall national champion and overall podium. On the other hand, you could say it is an age group national championship and only needs to prioritize a fair race within each age group, which it did on Saturday as everyone in an age group started at the exact same time.

Where it gets messy is that this race is also used to decide World Triathlon championship slots. However, these are based on aged-up results (everyone gets a year added to their USAT age). This was especially advantageous for 34 year-olds like me. I started at 7:12am, but ~80% of my competition for worlds slots started at 9:05am. So, besides having different weather conditions, not everyone is racing head-to-head for worlds slots, which isn't ideal.

The other factor they consider is optimizing athlete density on the course, which is apparently how they came up with the wave schedule. This seems important too and I think they did a good job achieving good spacing on the course.

One approach that might work is to do the waves by ability level (they could use USAT scores to avoid the issues that come with self-seeding/time estimates), fastest to slowest. This ensures that the best athletes are racing head-to-head in wave 1 and everyone is at most 1 or 2 waves apart from their likely closest competitors in their age group which solves the weather difference issue. All awards can still be by age-group and this also mostly solves the age-up problem. This approach is likely bad for course crowding though. Going by age groups works well because they know there will be a pretty large variation in swim/bike speed throughout an age group. However, this is more or less how USAT Collegiate Nationals worked (10 years ago) with the faster athletes going in earlier waves and it seemed to work fine.

In general, I'm all for some sort of elite amateur category in triathlon, but it has to make sense within the context of qualifying for worlds, so unless World Triathlon adopts the category as well, I don't see it working well at USAT Nationals.

Anyways, this was an awesome event and I really hope it is back in Milwaukee again next year (and forever).


Bring back the 90's! Almost every race that had prize money had an open/elite wave. I can remember racing in those lining up next to pros who were gracing the cover of the tri mags. I can also remember plenty of 1:54-2h oly times that did not put me in the money.

A long time ago I sat or talked with people who were working on a committee for some sort of category thing for AG racing similar to bike racing. That idea got killed quickly by whoever the committee was reporting to.

I think, from what I've gathered with short talks with people at USAT, they want and they do everything in their power to make it as fair as possible for everyone in that AG that is about to start. Wave starts for the head to head know where you're at aspect, spreading the waves out to keep rider density down and prevent clumping of riders on the bike, making sure the start dock is = distance so no one has an advantage by starting on one side etc.

[quoteB_Doughtie] In talking to many of the top overall places and their coaches, how many actually go to worlds vs use it as a chance to qualify for pro card or use it as opportunity to race the best in the country. For those athletes that’s the bigger draw than a worlds AG slot from talks of coaches and athletes I’ve been able to talk too.[/quote]

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Most people aren't here for AG worlds slots as they often roll down 20-30 spots (sounds like another worlds). They are here bc it's one of the most competitive races in the US......of any distance year after year after year.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Aug 9, 22 13:40
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [5430tri] [ In reply to ]
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5430tri wrote:
Brooks - I so remember that elite super sprint in Milwaukee. Our main reason for that "showcase event" was to have as many age-group athletes witness how cool draft legal super sprint can be. Further, as President of USAT at the time, I proposed we keep AGNC at Milwaukee permanently/indefinitely. It had rave reviews, centrally located in the US, easy to get to, and a very welcoming community. Make it like Hilton Head was back in the day. This was nixed when they built the new arena/stadium downtown, and we had to go somewhere else (Cleveland); but, now, I hope USAT considers making Milwaukee "The Home of AGNC." I also love adding the youth & juniors!



^^^^^^ TOTALLY AGREE!! Such an awesome venue in all ways and the addition of the youth would be amazing.

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Moving the Youth and Juniors to AG weekend will cut huge costs for usat as right now they have back to back multi day championship weekends. So compressing that to 1 x 3-4 day event will help.

But I think you’ll see in the long run it’ll put a lot of pressure on youth and juniors families. Especially as they already travel to 3-4 race weekends around the country.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Another thing will be safe sport compliancy when you bring that many people into an venue with u18 athletes as well. Especially in this day and age or federations being sued for “not protecting” their youth etc.

I don’t know if regular usat members must take safe sport each year. I know coaches and any adults who are in regular contact ( asst non usat coaches, parent volunteers etc) with juniors have to take it. Coaches in fact this year got “credentialed” at Youth Juniors, similar to what they do at USA swim meets or big events. (It basically meant you had passed safe sport)

Is Safe sport a requirement now for regular usat membership?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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No, Safe Sport is not a requirement for regular USAT membership.

What would the extra financial pressure be on youth families? If, like my friends, both they and their kids race, it will be a money and time saver. If it is just their kids racing, it will be a wash. Traveling to Milwaukee vs. West Chester.

Now maybe you can argue that West Chester is an easier drive for East Coast families, but Milwaukee is easier for some folks as well.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Why not just have an open wave and by entering the open wave you forfeit AG classification and/or worlds slots.


This could certainly work, but it could get messy as it often does when there is this kind of wave/division at smaller races. I think it likely ends up pitting more of the top athletes head-to-head, so that's good. But what if the overall fastest time isn't from this wave? Are they still "national champion"? Or do you have to be in the open wave to be considered for overall placing?

We have this at our local race series in Colorado. What ends up happening is that about half the top 10 is in the elite division and half isn't for whatever reason (age group podium pics look better on Instagram than no podium pic in the elite wave?). It becomes sort of pointless. With worlds slots (which I'm sure some of the top athletes do care about), the pull to not enter the open/elite wave becomes even stronger than it is at the local races.

For this to work well I think there needs to be a strong incentive to be in the open wave. Or even forced entry into the wave above a certain USAT ranking score (though that is bad for those that do care about worlds if worlds doesn't have this category too). I don't see a strong enough incentive to get all the fastest people in this wave voluntarily until it is some exclusive/qualification thing that culturally is sought after.

I still think doing the waves by USAT score would be best (not perfect). Sure, the top of an age group might start 2 hours before the bottom of an age group, but those people aren't really competing anyways even though they're in the same age group. I don't think you'd have anyone complaining about that.
Last edited by: jwmott: Aug 9, 22 12:38
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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Had a blast at the Oly race and pumped to hear it might end up back in Milwaukee again next year!

Question on the rolldown for worlds slots in case anyone's in the know - I was just outside the rolldown window for my AG but realized after I got home that I'd forgotten about the age-up rule and might actually be in the mix in the aged-up group. Has anyone seen aged-up results yet or are they planning to post them? Did I miss out on my (slim) chance by not hitting the lounge/awards ceremony on the day of and letting them know I'm interested, or do they still contact people regardless?
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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Just make it as simple as possible. You want to race for the "win" at the front of the field (in the best conditions theoretically), you go into this open/elite wave. By doing so you forfeit any AG spot / AG awards / AG slots. You are simply racing USAT AG Nationals in the open wave. Said winner may be 1st overall time, may be 8th overall time. Just as there is "AG winners", you could win "Open wave" winner (and still not be the fastest overall athlete).

NC has the same type of categories you guys have. We just had an non IM 70.3 that was "won" by an AG athlete outside of the open wave.


I dont think it needs to be forced to be in that group, the stipulations will limit the amount in that group already being taken out of AG awards. OR simply remove "overall" from an race that is 100% AG category racing (I know that wont happen) and thus is greatly affected by the start of your wave.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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First- this has nothing to do with the location of the event. AG nats could be in San Diego, North Carolina, or in the middle of the country, and it'll be a financial burden, because the likely timeline is going to mean the youth and juniors races will no longer be on the weekend, as it has since the start of the event. So that means more travel during the week, and parents having to take more time off AND likely parents not being able to get to the venue. I know lots of families that go that 1 parent flies/drives to the event with the athlete and the other parent comes in the night before the event, because they had to work.

So what was a Thur travel day, Fri pre race day, Sat race invidual, Sun race MTR is now likely going to be pushed back 1 day. It only sounds like 1 day but again, when your talking about families taking time off work, that can be a burden.

Also it's 1 week further than what has always been, and for many they start school sports....which is why the race has always gone off in the late July / early Aug time frame.

But again it'll save money for USAT and will create a bigger "festival" feel, and that seems to be how many of these events are going toward.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [kristofredei] [ In reply to ]
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I emailed USAT about aged-up results just because I'm interested in seeing them. I can report back if I hear anything.

I believe that all the worlds slots (including rolldowns) were claimed on the day of the race at the awards ceremony. I don't think there is any rolldown beyond that. I'm not positive though as I wasn't able to be there.

From https://www.teamusa.org/...am-USA/Qualification

"We will post the age-up results at the awards ceremony of Toyota Age Group Nationals. At other national championships, age-up results will not be posted, and athletes will claim their spot through email within 2-3 weeks post-event."
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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I recall seeing due to the cancellation of last years Worlds that there were very few spots for most AG at least for the OD race. Therefore likely less change of rolling down. I didn't race but I read that for my AG there were only 2 slots.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [hiker726] [ In reply to ]
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That was for last year's Nationals and this year's worlds. I recall reading that when trying to find information on qualification for this year. They linked to last year's document somewhere. It was a little hard to find this year's qualification information.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Ah - interesting points on the timing. That could definitely make a difference. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I personally think the open/ elite wave gets complicated. Removing folks from AG awards has issues, especially considering Worlds qualifications. I wish USAT would de-emphasize the overall winners and focus on the AG aspect of AGNC

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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But see I think it makes it more simplier in that if you make it a cut and dry rule- AG slots are forfeited if you race open wave. End of story. But of course this is the “AG” national champs so by default it’ll never go down like that. Some years you’ll get in a good starting spot and some other years you won’t.

I kinda chuckle at usat when they will show X athlete breaking tape and blast it all over social media and talk about X is the fastest and then 90 mins later someone actually goes faster and suddenly a new overall champion forms…funny enough that’s happened to an athlete of mine. It creates a weird dynamic (I def had but I saw your athlete win comments from people), but I get it the running through the banner is a social media money shot. So in that aspect hope to be in the early waves to get that publicity.

Again they’ll never create an open wave. I just think it’s a bunch of different races that have so many specific variables that affect your time, “overall” placing is kinda a hard pill to swallow at times.

Eta: and that isn’t to take away from the people who race and rock solid times w the best conditions. Or to make excuses. It’s to say I don’t think they ran the same race….even though it was the same course on the same day.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 9, 22 19:53
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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jwmott wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Why not just have an open wave and by entering the open wave you forfeit AG classification and/or worlds slots.


This could certainly work, but it could get messy as it often does when there is this kind of wave/division at smaller races. I think it likely ends up pitting more of the top athletes head-to-head, so that's good. But what if the overall fastest time isn't from this wave? Are they still "national champion"? Or do you have to be in the open wave to be considered for overall placing?

We have this at our local race series in Colorado. What ends up happening is that about half the top 10 is in the elite division and half isn't for whatever reason (age group podium pics look better on Instagram than no podium pic in the elite wave?). It becomes sort of pointless. With worlds slots (which I'm sure some of the top athletes do care about), the pull to not enter the open/elite wave becomes even stronger than it is at the local races.

For this to work well I think there needs to be a strong incentive to be in the open wave. Or even forced entry into the wave above a certain USAT ranking score (though that is bad for those that do care about worlds if worlds doesn't have this category too). I don't see a strong enough incentive to get all the fastest people in this wave voluntarily until it is some exclusive/qualification thing that culturally is sought after.

I still think doing the waves by USAT score would be best (not perfect). Sure, the top of an age group might start 2 hours before the bottom of an age group, but those people aren't really competing anyways even though they're in the same age group. I don't think you'd have anyone complaining about that.


I agree with this. I don't know how having an elite/open wave but excluding those athletes from World Champs + AG Podiums solves anything when they're still all AG athletes & not everyone would move over. We're having the same issue where half of the best athletes would square off & half would go try to age group podium. I would just have 1 wave start first & use score rating to determine who is in that wave. My wave was ~150 or so. That would be ~95 score rating based on 2021. You could do something smaller. If someone outside of the top-150 finishes ahead of someone who started in the first wave then then they finish ahead of them for their age group & overall. If you're in that first wave you have nothing to complain about since you started first & started with the fastest athletes.
Last edited by: dcpinsonn: Aug 10, 22 4:04
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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jwmott wrote:
That was for last year's Nationals and this year's worlds. I recall reading that when trying to find information on qualification for this year. They linked to last year's document somewhere. It was a little hard to find this year's qualification information.

For Olympic distance, I believe there are some deferrals to deal with into 2023 for those who had a valid basis to not race in Abu Dhabi this year (I don't recall exact contours of "valid basis" but it had to due with repressive nature of government there). I have no idea how many such deferrals there are.

Also, I believe roll downs can happen further down the line. At AGN, people are just indicating intent. A few weeks later, you have to pony up some $s (has been $75) to hold spot. I believe the slots that don't pay by the deadline then roll down. Also, I believe even after that, if slots open up they can roll down as long as they open up well before entries have to be submitted to World Triathlon (so if you claim a spot (even if you've paid money for it) and then learn you can't go, please let USAT know so someone else can race).
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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In your scenario of having wave 1 athletes being able to race at the front and for their specific AG category- you’ve brought in way more unfairness for the categories. Right now the only “unfairness” is overall, but this being the “AG” champs that isn’t too big of a deal cus the racers starting 2 hours later still are racing for their AG and it’s right in front of them. Win that group and your a national champion. Your scenario would have it you’ll never know where you stood in your category until all the results are posted cus you would have athletes in 2 different waves potentially 2 hours apart etc.

You can’t have a category based championship and then not have them race at the same time. Your solution creates way more unfairness than any solution.

Thus the most fairest solution is that instead of AG wave 1 competes for overall only. They don’t get to race the best conditions and race for AG when their AG could be 90 mins later. But again you have to deny them AG award cus they wouldn’t be racing in M 30-34 or F 16-19 etc. it’s simply their “category” would be open. They do that already at plenty of local racing events. 4th place open but 1st place M25-29 doesn’t get the AG award, their award is 4th place.

Who says it can’t be like that at AG champs? That is way better solution than allowing for the AG categories to have athletes not racing together and results go together. You have to race the category you are assigned at the SAME time, as the fairest way of doing it. Anything else does not solve the fairness issue we are debating.


Of course they’ll never create an open wave. But your solution solves way less than the solution I suggested.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 10, 22 5:43
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Really like how you're dealing in absolutes -- I'm just throwing some ideas out there and think the problem with what you're proposing is that you still wouldn't get all of the best athletes competing against one another, which is the problem we're trying to solve right? What I'm proposing is a somewhat lax standard for the 1st/elite/open wave so most people gunning for age group awards are competing at the same time. That does a lot to fix the fairness component if the age group award winners are all in that wave. This isn't a local triathlon where you have 1 4th place open not getting an award like in your scenario. Do the elite wave by score rating & then if someone shows up at AG Nats & does really well out of a later wave you still reward them. Is it perfect? No. But so many good age group athletes wouldn't go for what else has been thrown out there.

I do agree, overall, that AG Nationals does a good job currently of deciding who is the best in each age group. I'd rather keep the current system if something is proposed that doesn't get all of the top athletes competing against one another. Right now overall place & score rating is affected by where you start. You could miss out on an overall podium or your pro card because you started an hour or two after other athletes. I get that this is a unique problem and those athletes will likely just do what they need to do at another race.
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