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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [Chemist] [ In reply to ]
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Also, I wonder if the brake calipers/pads have more clearance. That is my biggest beef with disc brakes. At least the ultegra calipers have such tight clearances it’s take more time than I’d like to get them to not rub. Which can make swapping wheelsets a bit more time consuming as well. Tririg and speed concept brakes spoiled me with their easy adjustments

Matt
Last edited by: Chemist: Aug 31, 21 7:51
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [Chemist] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure the disc braking is improved and the slimmed down derailleurs look pretty nice. Overall, doesn't look as if it will be much better/different than current gen stuff.

Dimond Bikes
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [Chemist] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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thank you for noticing ;-)

i have been on the dura ace 9200 group for a month, and have spent a lot of time with this and the ultegra 8100 groupset. fire away with any questions and i'm happy to do my best to answer.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Looks like the pm won't be available until early 2022.

A few questions:

- Will the TT front end setup still include a 5 port junction? Are the TT components any different than prior version? I haven't been able to find any pics so far.
- I see the 12 speed cassette's are backwards compatible to existing 11 speed free hubs. Will 9100/8100 get a firmware update to be 12 speed capable?

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Last edited by: stevej: Aug 31, 21 9:45
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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~$4,200!!!! For 9250/70… I should have been a dentist.
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Setting aside DA the price of Ultegra is actually better than I expected. Many bike companies are likely to continue to forgo the Shimano cranksets, cassettes and chains on OEM specs and that leaves a competitive build option for wireless shifting.

More interesting in my mind is that Shimano has thrown the door wide open for it finally taking 105 electronic at a competitive price point. The new battery and shifter technology has been designed to still support wired connections. All they have to do it remove the wireless chipset from the brifters as well as the fancy servo-wave braking and boom they have a ready made 105 electronic groupset with a clear distinction to the Ultegra and DA options. With a budget friendly crankset and cassette you are entering the realm of current mechanical Ultegra. It is then just a matter of time before a wireless chip is added to a TT brake lever option and you have an entry level electronic system i.e. 105 mechs plugged into the battery which is paired wirelessly to the wireless supported brake levers which are wired to clics at the bar ends.
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Allow me a moment of silence for the end of high end Shimano mechanical shifting.

Suffer Well.
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm so happy that the cassettes will fit the 'old' Shimano freehubs. The move to SRAM 12 speed is going to be less painful when I can grab a few of the Shimano cassettes for my trainer and CX wheels. $112 USD instead of a new freehub and AXS cassette will save a ton of money.

I think a lot of people are going to be happy with the brake updates as well. There really wasn't much clearance in those calipers and I personally thought the previous caliper bleed 'solution' was a pain.
Last edited by: dangle: Aug 31, 21 9:53
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
Looks like the pm won't be available until early 2022.

A few questions:

- Will the TT front end setup still include a 5 port junction? Are the TT components any different than prior version? I haven't been able to find any pics so far.
- I see the 12 speed cassette's are backwards compatible to existing 11 speed free hubs. Will 9100/8100 get a firmware update to be 12 speed capable?

here's how the routing works.

- there's a wire from each of the pursuit shifters, and these wires meet each other in the pursuit bar somewhere, and they join with a coupling that has 2 intake ports (1 for each pursuit wire), and 1 port from which a single wire emerges. it's not a junction box. it's just a coupling.

- there is a junction box. it's got 4 ports. 3 of those ports are intake ports, and into them get plugged the wires from the left and right bar-end shifters, and that wire that comes from the pursuit coupling described above. the final of the 4 ports is the wire that leads to the rest of the system.

- from there, i'm not 100 percent sure what happens, because the ONLY wires in the rear of the system are from the RD to the battery, and from the battery to the FD. so, where does this wire go, that comes from the front of the bike? i'll find out.

- i do not see that any new TT shift products have launched.

- i do not believe that 9150 and 8050 components are backward compatible to 12sp.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

thank you for noticing ;-)

i have been on the dura ace 9200 group for a month, and have spent a lot of time with this and the ultegra 8100 groupset. fire away with any questions and i'm happy to do my best to answer.

Not entirely clear, have you been on the mechanical ultegra 12s group?

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...Direct-mount & ZeroSlip-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com....Reviews....Instagram....Facebook

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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [jmh] [ In reply to ]
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jmh wrote:
Allow me a moment of silence for the end of high end Shimano mechanical shifting.

you will want to read my companion piece published just a few minutes ago.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Slowman wrote:


thank you for noticing ;-)

i have been on the dura ace 9200 group for a month, and have spent a lot of time with this and the ultegra 8100 groupset. fire away with any questions and i'm happy to do my best to answer.


Not entirely clear, have you been on the mechanical ultegra 12s group?


what mechanic group is that?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Aug 31, 21 9:56
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Slowman wrote:


thank you for noticing ;-)

i have been on the dura ace 9200 group for a month, and have spent a lot of time with this and the ultegra 8100 groupset. fire away with any questions and i'm happy to do my best to answer.


Not entirely clear, have you been on the mechanical ultegra 12s group?


what mechanic group is that?

Is there a non electronic (new) Shimano ultegra 12 speed group ?

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...Direct-mount & ZeroSlip-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com....Reviews....Instagram....Facebook

--
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
jmh wrote:
Allow me a moment of silence for the end of high end Shimano mechanical shifting.


you will want to read my companion piece published just a few minutes ago.

Why would I want salt on that fresh wound?

Suffer Well.
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Slowman wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Slowman wrote:


thank you for noticing ;-)

i have been on the dura ace 9200 group for a month, and have spent a lot of time with this and the ultegra 8100 groupset. fire away with any questions and i'm happy to do my best to answer.


Not entirely clear, have you been on the mechanical ultegra 12s group?


what mechanic group is that?


Is there a non electronic (new) Shimano ultegra 12 speed group ?

not that i know of.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, I am seeing that the chain and disc rotors are shared with XT 8170 and that the cassettes are compatible. I know Shimano just started with GRX but is there any sense that they are trying to merge the streams of mountain, gravel, and road? The chain, rotor, cassette, possibly chainring, hydro calipers, battery, are all nearly or completely identical. It comes down to the RD and the cockpit where differences reside. Bigger gear ranges could see people actually adopt 1x more widely on road, leading to a clutched RD there.
This would be a huge positive for Shimano and consumers as it streamlines manufacturing and distribution and simplifies a lot of service. And with both electronics hardware and firmware involved, trimming down variants also saves money, testing, and support.
Might seem crazy but I could see a singular system with choices on cassette range/chainring size, # of brake pistons and rotor size, and of course cockpit type. Everything else is the "core" of the system.
Thoughts?
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [hokietris] [ In reply to ]
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hokietris wrote:
Dan, I am seeing that the chain and disc rotors are shared with XT 8170 and that the cassettes are compatible. I know Shimano just started with GRX but is there any sense that they are trying to merge the streams of mountain, gravel, and road? The chain, rotor, cassette, possibly chainring, hydro calipers, battery, are all nearly or completely identical. It comes down to the RD and the cockpit where differences reside. Bigger gear ranges could see people actually adopt 1x more widely on road, leading to a clutched RD there.
This would be a huge positive for Shimano and consumers as it streamlines manufacturing and distribution and simplifies a lot of service. And with both electronics hardware and firmware involved, trimming down variants also saves money, testing, and support.
Might seem crazy but I could see a singular system with choices on cassette range/chainring size, # of brake pistons and rotor size, and of course cockpit type. Everything else is the "core" of the system.
Thoughts?

i write about this in my article on this launch on the front page. other than the obvious move from 11sp to 12sp, the overarching theme is the impression of offroad components and tech onto road. and, really, the move from 11sp to 12sp is part of that as well.

the MTB rotors were better, and shimano couldn't make a road rotor as good. and so it goes. just as shimano streams its DA tech down to ultegra, shimano has streamed its XTR tech to DA. so far, shimano has kept its groupsets distinct: road versus gravel versus MTB. SRAM has chosen a different approach, which is to just make parts, and the use case is up to the OE or the end user. i think shimano is trending, in product design, toward what SRAM has chosen to do.

the one area where i think SRAM has gotten itself into a cul de sac is on chains. really, the chain determines a lot with SRAM, if you use an eagle chain, the drivetrain is MTB. if you use a flat top chain, the drivetrain is road. SRAM could make things easier on itself if it just had 1 chain. but i don't know enough about SRAM's product design and engineering to know if and whether that's possible.

so, i think what's very clear with both SRAM and shimano is that offroad is driving road, gravel is driving road, and i think part of that is because of gearing: what has been true for the entire history of road cycling, including the past 20 or 30 years, is that every time you offer a lower gear option to road cyclists they take it. offroad and gravel introduced lower gears, and road riders said, "i want those."

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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So 11 speed cranks/rings aren't compatible with the new 12speed system?

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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:


thank you for noticing ;-)

i have been on the dura ace 9200 group for a month, and have spent a lot of time with this and the ultegra 8100 groupset. fire away with any questions and i'm happy to do my best to answer.

Do you have any idea on the backward compatibility? For example, does the new disc brake calipers work with previous gen shifters, or previous gen shifters working with the new rear derailleurs?
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [dalava] [ In reply to ]
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dalava wrote:
Slowman wrote:


thank you for noticing ;-)

i have been on the dura ace 9200 group for a month, and have spent a lot of time with this and the ultegra 8100 groupset. fire away with any questions and i'm happy to do my best to answer.

Do you have any idea on the backward compatibility? For example, does the new disc brake calipers work with previous gen shifters, or previous gen shifters working with the new rear derailleurs?

No and No

https://productinfo.shimano.com/#/com/

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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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+1 on this question. I have a power2max rotor 3D+ with Praxis 11 speed rings, it would be great if I could keep that as is and just swap chains.
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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This really won't affect me probably but in reading about the new groups...why on earth are the rim brake options still fully wired??!

I'm guessing the obvious answer is that they don't want people to buy rim brakes anymore so it's an incentive to go disc if you're on the fence.

But it seems like an unnecessary middle finger from Shimano, sorta. They could have done it fully wireless, but chose not to. If they wanted people to buy disc, make it disc only.

Also, I don't care if XTR rotors perform better...The now older DA and ultegra rotors make a bike look way freaking better.
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:
I'm so happy that the cassettes will fit the 'old' Shimano freehubs. The move to SRAM 12 speed is going to be less painful when I can grab a few of the Shimano cassettes for my trainer and CX wheels. $112 USD instead of a new freehub and AXS cassette will save a ton of money.

I think a lot of people are going to be happy with the brake updates as well. There really wasn't much clearance in those calipers and I personally thought the previous caliper bleed 'solution' was a pain.

You're sure the cassette stack and cog spacing are the same between SRAM 12 and Shimano 12?
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Re: Dura Ace 12 speed in the wild [geetee] [ In reply to ]
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geetee wrote:
dangle wrote:
I'm so happy that the cassettes will fit the 'old' Shimano freehubs. The move to SRAM 12 speed is going to be less painful when I can grab a few of the Shimano cassettes for my trainer and CX wheels. $112 USD instead of a new freehub and AXS cassette will save a ton of money.

I think a lot of people are going to be happy with the brake updates as well. There really wasn't much clearance in those calipers and I personally thought the previous caliper bleed 'solution' was a pain.


You're sure the cassette stack and cog spacing are the same between SRAM 12 and Shimano 12?

Shimano 12 speed road and 12 speed MTB use the same 'cog spacing' and Shimano 12 speed road is the same chain as the Shimano 12 speed MTB stuff. I know the Shimano 12 speed MTB stuff is cross compatible (enough) with SRAM 12 speed. Thus, I'm making the assumption it will work well enough for my needs.
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