Rincon

I’ve been running in Bondis, since 2013. I used to race in the Clifton 1,2, and 3 but they were narrow, and still working out the kinks. For the last 3 years, I trained and raced exclusively in the Bondi 5 and 6, and still cleaned up my age group (60-64 most recently). This Spring I decided to revisit the Clifton’s, really like Clifton 7. Great fit, nice and light, and still good cushion, for my old knees. Last month, I ran the fastest half marathon for me, in the last 3 years, in the Clifton 7. I’m planning to go to the Bondi 7 for training, and race in the Clifton’s, going foreword, for my fall marathon, and IMTulsa next year.

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Athlinks / Strava

Saucony Endorphin Shift. Far better fit and feel.

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Kiwami Racing Team

Great idea if he'd asked about a Saucony...

If you've been in the Bondi B, the new Bondi is going to change the LEAST from what you're used to but still give you a, imho, a better running feel over the marathon distance.

I have ankle arthitis, which flares if I run too much and then I get aching in my ankles that require time off.

I thought only Hoka Bondi 6s would allow me to train adequately, and yes, they did - I can do full Oly triathlon training programs now without injury.

Was surprised though to find that I can run pain-free in Endorphin Speeds (Saucony) as well as Saucony Triump (maximalist as well). Especially surprised with the Speeds as they are a 'race' shoe, but apparently have enough cushioning that I do intervals with them without residual pain (as opposed to most other shoes.)

I know OP asked about Hokas, but if OP is or has been racing in Bondis, he's leaving a lot of speed on the table - Bondis are slow and heavy, and measurably so. It's worth trying out the Endorphin Speed just to see if it works, even if you just use it for race day, we're talking 7-10+ sec/mile of speed advantage compared to a Bondi, if not more.

I still regularly run in my Bondi6s for slow recovery run days.

+ rincon - i like the version 1 than the 2s

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"Pain is NOT temporary,you remember every bit of it"

I think I should stop by the store and try those Speeds. I have done 5 IM's, all with Bondi's (B, 2, 3, 5, 6). I'm in the 4hr to 4.5hr range, so not really burning up the tarmack. But the Bondi cushioning is nice for that long run. I was hoping someone had experience with a lighter Hoka, similar to the Speed?

...

Rincon is closet. But the Endorphin speed is definitely better, having raced and run in the Rincon previously, and honestly, to me has equivalent cushioning.

The Endorphin speed, despite being a 'race' shoe, has surprisingly excellent cushioning. It's not a marshmellow, but it's a smooth, soft ride.

Even if you just break it out for a few times before and then on race day, I think it'll be worth it. But you can also do that with Vaporflys/Alphaflys (I have a pair in my closet that I just got, but haven't run in yet - these definitely feel 'weirdly unstable' at first, as opposed to the Endorphin speed which feels like a totally normal shoe.)

The Bondi is about the worst shoe choice for racing, your running economy is going to get worse and that's the last thing you need in an IM.

Your best bet is go to your local running store then try on the Hokas AND try on some other recommendations.

You could try the rincon, clifton, mach.

Give me 10 people with your background and all three shoes will be chosen as The Hoka for Them.

Who's to say one of those is better than any other for you?

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

True but the Saucony Speed is a better shoe

Not to derail, but do you know of any long time Mach users and their opinion of the shoe? Asking because that shoe is the most comparable thing I could find to compare to the old ‘performance neutral’ category as it’s firm, light, and quick in training..... most of the time. A weird thing I’ve noticed is that once in every few pairs the foam is not nearly as stiff as it should be. Had it on a few pairs of Mach 2’s and now both pairs of 4’s I’ve had for 1-2 months. The 4s are soft to the point I’m not even bothering with it anymore as it appears they’re going the way with it that they did with the clifton - more cushion, less responsiveness.

It can’t be just me.

I've got a pair of Mach 4s and really enjoying the softness. 4 might as well be a totally different model to different Machs from my experience and the reviews I've read. I think you're right to move on to something else if that isn't for you.

I will second this opinion as I just made the shift from Hoka Clifton's to the Saucony Endorphin Shift. If I take some time off from running or coming off an injury I tend to lean toward Hoka's and then gradually move toward another brand. And I say this because I agree with the comments about them being flat. I started with Bondi's when they first came out and I can tell you they were like wearing elevator shoes with a rocking chair attached to the bottom. I understand your age, and the desire for a well cushioned shoe, but if you are that light and with that extensive running background, and have a neutral foot, I would highly recommend the Endorphin Shift. Comfy and smooth and much more responsive than the Bondi's with the same heel-toe offset, just a lower stack. So, no harm should come from making the switch if you choose. Also, the other reason I made the switch was because anything over 10 miles and the gusseted tongue on the Hoka's gave me blisters on my insole. Best of Luck!!

I just got a pair of the Rincon 2 and have been enjoying them in my rotation. Currently using the Rincon's for shorter, tempo runs and Clifton 7s for the long, endurance and recovery runs.

I picked up the Mach 4 a couple of months ago. At the same time I also got a pair of Saucony Endorphin Speed. I'm a long time Hoke runner, starting with the Clifton 1. I've probably gone through 20+ pairs of Clifton iterations alone. I've also liked the Napali, Tracer & Vanquish, but none of those models are made anymore. When the Clifton 1 were reissued a couple years ago I bought a bunch - still have one pair that I haven't worn yet. The Mach 4 got quite a bit of hype, but compared to the Endorphin Speed it is very 'blaah.' These are the two shoes in my current lineup - Mach 4 for easy/recovery days and Speed for faster/longer stuff.

I know you said Hoka, but the Endorphin Speed is a pretty fantastic shoe. It feels a lot like the original Vaporfly4%, but in more of an everyday shoe. I have a bit over 200 miles in the Speeds, and there is very little wear on the outsole.

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Just for the OP or anyone else who's wondering why we're all harping on the Endorphin Speed in particular as opposed to other racing shoes is that it shares the same foam as the Nike's, has a nylon plate for rebound, and at least one pro says they are as fast in it as the Alphafly. So it's not just another joe-random shoe, it's a fast one.

 

I run in both Hoka and Saucony.

Love my Cliftons, I will probably switch to the Rincons for Ultras.

I have the Saucony Shifts and they are......OK. I'm faster but thinking about doing a marathon or longer race in them gives me the worries.

They are just not that comfy. Now every opinion is personal and subjective. To declare that "this" shoe is better is just BS. You have to find what works for you.

Then shift is the slowest and least race ready of the endorphin line. Most swear by the speed then pro but the shift is rarely mentioned.

Go speed then decide.

It's all I can do to keep the Mach 4s in stock in the most popular sizes. No one I can remember has complained about the 4's if they've been long time Mach users. Been a few weeks since I've been on the floor though.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

The Saucony and Nike shoes do not use the same foam.

Nike uses Pebax foam. On a side note so does Mizuno and they been using it longer, just a different density/rebound/springiness. Not all Pebax runs the same.

Saucony uses a TPU foam that is close to Adidas's Boost foam. Why is this significant?

Boost is The Foam that started the shoe foam craze. IMO it's the biggest foam breakthrough of this century for running shoes. It's the foam that was first shown to increase running economy and at one point something like 12 of 13 world records set in the marathon were in Adidas shoes. It's the foam that sent Nike and everyone else back to the drawing board.

All these shoes are going to give people 1-7% increase in running economy. You could try them on and shoe A could be 2%, Shoe B 6%, Shoe C 5%. For someone else they could get shoe A at 6%, B at 1% C and 3%.

I'd not pay too much attention to which shoe is the fastest on elite runners as you and I don't run like them. In fact Asics is launching shoes that are tuned for running velocities.

Try on a bunch of these shoes and get the one that feels the best. For instance I thought the Next % felt the best underfoot when trying them on. I ran .25 mile in them and thought they ran like dogshit. Ended up with Endorphin Pros. \_O_/ Each his own.

You are correct that the Saucony Speed has a nylon plate the Pro has a carbon plate.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

In my google search it seems to say that the endorphin speed uses Pebax but not sure what the sources are.

But I do agree with all you said which is great info

You know what you're right and I'm wrong. Their powrrun pb foam is a pebax foam that looks a lot like the boost tpu foam. IDK why that slipped my mind until you said something.

They've been using a 2mm topsole made of TPU in a lot of their shoes

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Our rep said the Pro uses the same Pebax foam, but made into columns so it has a better directional rebound and lasts far longer. We’ve had customers in gif their third pair of Pros, and the first pair I’d going strong with 400 miles on them.

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Kiwami Racing Team

i run in your shoe, the Bondi B. i'm running in it now. i did buy multiple pairs. but i'm going to be out soon, and then i face your dilemma. i have owned and run in the following shoes mentioned in this thread and here are my comments:

Bondi 7: okay. but kind of a dog.

Saucony Endorphin Shift: i had hopes this shoe would be the equal or better. it won't, for you. you'll waste you money if you buy it, if you're like me.

Rincon: not even close. good shoe, but the construction of the shoe, and the use case, is entirely different than the Bondi B.

Mach 4: now this is a great shoe. this is definitely part of my rotation. but it is really almost interchangeable with the Carbon X, in terms of use case. for me. very occasional lightweight trainer that you can race in. i go about the same speed in this shoe as i do in the Carbon X, the Carbon X is my dedicated race shoe. so, great, great shoe, but you won't get quite the structure out of it as you do the Bondi B.

now for my recommendation, sort of:

Elevon 3. this is your shoe, i think. this is my new shoe, i think. why do i think? why don't i know? because there is no Elevon 3. we're only at the 2. there is one, and only one, problem with the Elevon 2 (other than a rather complex lacing), is that the shoe lacks sufficient forefoot cushion (in my opinion). but in terms of use case, this is the shoe. my hope is that HOKA listened to those who've voiced an opinion about the forefoot cushion, because those opinions tend to be that there is too little rather than enough or too much. the Elevon 2 has been around for awhile, it's not terrifically old, but i would think that a "3" is not too far off. i'll be interested in seeing what happens with this shoe.

Clifton 8: again, not as substantial as the Bondi B. the Clifton and the Bondi series have each been putting on some bulk, the Bondi up and out of usability, the Clifton up and into (for me) usability. The problem is that the Mach 4 sort of elbows out the Clifton 8, because for me it's the same use and a better shoe.

accordingly, i'm awaiting a new Elevon. the existing Elevon is usable. by me. but it's not quite there yet. and the next time the Bondi B comes out i'm buying 8 pairs.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman