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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Xavier wrote:
RichardL wrote:
My unscientific rolling testing at 20 mph (32 kph) showed the new VF Record clinchers to be slower than my Corsa Speed 2.0 set up with inner tube. Not significantly slower, but slower nevertheless. I used Silca 700 x 24-30mm latex inner tube for the test runs. BRR also got similar test results: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/...iews/veloflex-record

Did AeroCoach receive a magic, special VF Record clincher for their test?


Brr test with butyl tubes. We’ve done and redone the VF record data on rollers, round a wooden velodrome and also round a tarmac velodrome with the same results!


The VF Record doesn't seem to compare as favorably to other tires tested with butyl tubes (e.g., in BRR data, 9.0w for VFR vs. 10.0w for tubed GP5000, and 8.3w for TL GP5000). Are you implying that there's that there's a substantial difference in latex vs. butyl advantage for the VFR? IIRC, there has been some historical precedent in performance variance between different product runs of tires before.

Edit: I re-read the BRR review and it notes: "We also tested the Record with a 78 grams Vittoria Latex tube, and rolling resistance came in at 7.3 watts at 120 psi / 8.3 bars. 7.3 watts isn't enough to beat the tubeless Corsa Speed G+ 2.0 or Michelin Power Time Trial with a latex tube (both 7.0 watts). A 25 mm wide version of the Record would probably be on par with those tires when fitted with a latex tube."

Edit 2: From comments by RR author (JarnoBierman) [references are to the original French test on the VFR being fast]: "Thanks for your link. This issue has now been cleared up a bit for me! 100% sure they changed the tread of the Record somewhere last year.
Look at my pictures and then your pictures... You have the version with the very smooth tread (almost like a latex tread). When you look at my pictures you'll see it has a textured tread just like all the new Veloflex tires released in Q3 2020."

From the looks of it, BRR's tire's track looks similar to what louisn posted in Feb. 2021 (although his were tubular); would you be able to confirm whether the VFRs you tested with were the smooth or textured tread?
Last edited by: aravilare: Apr 27, 21 9:26
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Xavier wrote:
RichardL wrote:
My unscientific rolling testing at 20 mph (32 kph) showed the new VF Record clinchers to be slower than my Corsa Speed 2.0 set up with inner tube. Not significantly slower, but slower nevertheless. I used Silca 700 x 24-30mm latex inner tube for the test runs. BRR also got similar test results: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/...iews/veloflex-record

Did AeroCoach receive a magic, special VF Record clincher for their test?


Brr test with butyl tubes. We’ve done and redone the VF record data on rollers, round a wooden velodrome and also round a tarmac velodrome with the same results!

BRR also tested the VF Record with latex tube, same results. Scroll down to the bottom of the link above:


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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
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BTW, I got my VFRs in Q1 2021 directly from Veloflex, and they have textured tread.
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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So we have data on the old VF Record clincher (the one that’s been around for ages), the VF Record tubular with slight textured tread and the VF Record clincher with smooth tread. Both the old clincher and the tubular don’t have as good Crr as the Corsa Speed, but the smooth tread clincher is significantly faster. Aerodynamically the smooth tread clincher is very similar to a Corsa Speed in 23mm too.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
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aravilare wrote:
Edit 2: From comments by RR author (JarnoBierman) [references are to the original French test on the VFR being fast]: "Thanks for your link. This issue has now been cleared up a bit for me! 100% sure they changed the tread of the Record somewhere last year.
Look at my pictures and then your pictures... You have the version with the very smooth tread (almost like a latex tread). When you look at my pictures you'll see it has a textured tread just like all the new Veloflex tires released in Q3 2020."


Well... this is a bit annoying. Sounds like they made a super fast tire and then quickly modded it to make it slower. Just a tread texture and compound change? It's puzzling because the BRR test shows it to still be light and have thin tread and poor puncture resistance.

Photo on their site still shows smooth tread. For anybody who has bought these with the textured tread, I'd suggest some diplomatic bitching to Veloflex about this...


Last edited by: rruff: Apr 27, 21 11:24
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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So the Corsa Speed is now the champ again?
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Xavier wrote:
So we have data on the old VF Record clincher (the one that’s been around for ages), the VF Record tubular with slight textured tread and the VF Record clincher with smooth tread. Both the old clincher and the tubular don’t have as good Crr as the Corsa Speed, but the smooth tread clincher is significantly faster. Aerodynamically the smooth tread clincher is very similar to a Corsa Speed in 23mm too.

Thank you for the clarification. It seems that they've swapped treads for recent production; any idea if this is going to continue and if you guys have been able to source any smooth tread VFRs recently?
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [aravilare] [ In reply to ]
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It would be more interesting if AeroCoach could retest using the current production VFRs with textured tread since it's highly unlikely that people will be able to obtain smooth tread VFRs going forward.
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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This is all very intriguing, in a very bike dork sense. Until the dust settles, this seems like the time to brag about my 8 smooth tread Records sitting in their boxes while also noting that their magic properties will be wasted on a rider of my meager watts, and that's assuming they don't explode the first time I ride into a pebble on what are typically poor SoCal road surfaces.

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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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RichardL wrote:
It would be more interesting if AeroCoach could retest using the current production VFRs with textured tread since it's highly unlikely that people will be able to obtain smooth tread VFRs going forward.


Don’t worry we’re on it!



AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
Last edited by: Xavier: Apr 28, 21 9:39
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Xavier wrote:
Don’t worry we’re on it!

Terrific đź‘Ť Thanks a bunch.
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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FYI, I just today received 2 VF Records from Italy, they look smooth as the proverbial baby's butt.

How much "tread" are the new ones supposed to have?

-bobo

"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [bobo] [ In reply to ]
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In Xav's picture, left is "smooth" and right is "textured".
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Wow I guess I have the textured. If they actually made a noticeable different in speed with that swap and then continued to sell them, that's problematic. I'll definitely be asking for a refund for mine if they are actually slower.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Update:

The difference between the smooth Veloflex Record and the textured is ~0.000063 Crr, in favour of the smooth Record. Both are still significantly faster than Corsa Speed, Michelin Power TT etc., as the gap between the Record and the Corsa Speed is ~0.000475 Crr. At 45kph for a 75kg standardised rider therefore a pair of textured Records is around 0.6w slower than smooth (a pair of Corsa Speeds is nearly 5w slower). So IMO no need to worry which version you have, but if you have a smooth one then happy days.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the update! While we're into the numbers, what does the Crr of a set of the tubulars look like? If I recall, you said they weren't on par with the clinchers?
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [22kjackson] [ In reply to ]
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We need to do more repeats first, redo the glue job etc, just to make sure the data is sound but currently no it's not as good as the clincher version. If you're looking to use a tubular I'd go with a Corsa Speed at the moment.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Great work. Thank you. Now I can place an order.
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Used the same set of Veloflex Record clinchers for PoT half and then IMNZ - both bike courses have the usual amount of rough old kiwi chip (cheap) seal. No punctures and no issues. Apart from my overall lack of fitness (slowest IM bike split so far).

I'm no lightweight either...
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Can someone teach me what the brush with your hand thing is ?

I'm in the down to the chords camp too. I think a lot of people just don't pay attention to where they're riding. I'm pretty sure very few people do the "brush the tire" trick with their fingers when they run through stuff either. I was taught that early and it is pretty much reflexive at this point.[/quote]
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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Cookiebuilder wrote:
Can someone teach me what the brush with your hand thing is ?

a lot of people, after riding through a patch of broken glass, reach down and brush the tyres with their hand to remove any fragments that might have dug in enough to attach but not yet push their way through (especially the rear which you can't really be sure what path it took)
others will use a drink bottle to avoid the risk of cutting themselves on any glass present.

i don't personally do it as i think its pretty edge case in terms of glass that is attached but not all the way through, yet sticking out enough that you can remove it, getting to it before a few more wheel rotations push it in, not cutting yourself adding injury to insult... many cyclists swear by it though

i suspect that softer and stickier your rubber, the more relevant this is - some tyres are sticky to the point that glass will literally just stick on the surface until pushed through - records are likely to be in this category
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Just got a delivery of 3 Veloflex Records. I'm planning to use them for TTs and a hill climb age-group Strava KOM attempt. Specifically regarding the age-group KOM, the current KOM is at around 24km/hr. over about 6km for just under 14 minutes with an average grade of 6-7%. I previously did the KOM @ around 23.8km/hr. on a set of Specialized Turbo Cottons @305 watts for 14:05. (I'm 54yrs. old and weight 60kg, so these are decent numbers for my age-group/weight class). The crr watts that you tested were at 45kph. Any idea of the watt savings at a lower speed of around 24kph? Also of note, previously I used Vittoria latex tubes but have switched to the Vredestein Race latex tubes as I understand they are faster as well.

- Mike
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [MikeinCzech] [ In reply to ]
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Crr losses are typically assumed linear with speed... best guess. So about half the watts at 24 vs 45 km/hr. There might be an effect due to high torque as well.
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks rruff! That makes sense.
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