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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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Did you not see my point?

Johaug listed it as a medication she was using on her doping control. She told the doping control she was using it. There is no dispute it was in her body. She just didn't go through the formal therapeutic exemption process. She didn't do the right paperwork and got caught.

This is incredibly different than Russia still working with the dopingest coaching team of all time. The head coach of Russa is Ylena Valbe; I would bet my house that Ylena doped. All russians skiing in the 90's doped that is a fact. The current Russian coaching staff come from a culture of doping. I just don't believe the Russians are clean. Maybe they are, but they have a real bad doping history.

Johaugs performance today was unbelievable but she is the #2 skier ever. She is just the best and had a perfect body and perfect skis. On a course that is perfect for her.

Her performance is unbelievable...but it is clean.
Last edited by: xcskier66: Mar 2, 21 14:24
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [xcskier66] [ In reply to ]
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I did but I don't see how it matters. She would never have gotten a TUE for that particular substance either way as there were other more suitable alternatives. There are multiple scenarios where declaring it could be the smart thing to do, like misjudging micro dosing or finding out that the testing could pick up the substance for longer than anticipated(which was the case during that time). Either way it's completely ridiculous to think that a team doctor in the biggest and most well funded federation in nordic sports picked up a medication without first picking out a that it contained a steroid(this is doubled and tripple checked always) but also missing the big sticker on the package saying it contained a doping classed product. Not only did he miss that but she did as well while in an interview shortly before that going into detail about how particular she is with that stuff. This simply does not happen in high level sport and especially not with a support system like she has.

We've heard all the reasoning before as to why certain athletes are heads and shoulders above everyone else but almost always it turns out too good to be true. To say with certainty that someone is clean is unfortunately not possible anymore and especially not with her previous history.




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
Last edited by: bjorn: Mar 2, 21 16:25
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [hbog12] [ In reply to ]
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hbog12 wrote:
I gotta say, I thought US had put it's wax woes behind it. And here we are in 2021. NOBODY on the US had good skis. Diggins was clearly slipping, Sophie looked to be working hard and going nowhere, and JC was the same. Disappointing. Jessie is too classy to throw the wax techs under the bus but you could just see the difference on the lack of glide and grip, but I'm not that classy. Wax was a huge issue today.

well this is as you say very disappointing.. can't we turn a Norwegian ski tech somehow ? ha.

I did a long climb in slush recently - have had snow clump on the skis, but never before had ice form on the bases..
The shady bits were OK, but even double poling through the sunny bits, the skis would bog down within a couple of yards. Grim..
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
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Wednesday 3/2 @ 7:15am - Men's 15k Skate Interval Start

Not much to say on this one really, it will likely be a bunch of Norwegians and Bolshunov in the top 6. Maybe Iivo Niskanen can shake things up, and several of the other Russians have been strong on the World Cup this season.

Personally I'm more interested in the U23s with Gus Schumacher for the US, Hugo Laplus for France (U23 World Champ), William Poromaa for Sweden, and Friederich Moch for Germany. Gus had a relatively disappointing 9th in the 15k skate at U23 worlds, and I'm looking forward to seeing him bounce back tomorrow. I think a top 15, maybe even a top 10 is possible.

Also starting for the US are Scott Patterson and David Norris who were great in the Skiathlon, and Simi Hamilton who has had a tough season and I would love to see have a solid race.

Another U23 of note is Remi Drolet from Canada who skis for Harvard and trains at our beloved Weston Ski Track!

I guess I need to make some picks...
Picks:
1. Bolshunov
2. Krueger
3. Holund
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [xcskier66] [ In reply to ]
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xcskier66 wrote:
Did you not see my point?


Johaug listed it as a medication she was using on her doping control. She told the doping control she was using it. There is no dispute it was in her body. She just didn't go through the formal therapeutic exemption process. She didn't do the right paperwork and got caught.

This is incredibly different than Russia still working with the dopingest coaching team of all time. The head coach of Russa is Ylena Valbe; I would bet my house that Ylena doped. All russians skiing in the 90's doped that is a fact. The current Russian coaching staff come from a culture of doping. I just don't believe the Russians are clean. Maybe they are, but they have a real bad doping history.

Johaugs performance today was unbelievable but she is the #2 skier ever. She is just the best and had a perfect body and perfect skis. On a course that is perfect for her.

Her performance is unbelievable...but it is clean.


As stupid as this may sound any athlete who wins and tests clean, I have to give the benefit of the doubt. But once they test positive and come back and still pull off miraculous performances, the benefit of the doubt and statements about "but it is clean" just get harder to stomach.

Here is the discussion on Valverde and his Operacion Puerto based "past" and doping ban:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/...uerto/#disqus_thread

We can't stop athletes to return to sport after their bans (don't blame the athlete for coming back, blame the system for allowing them back in), but if they are back from bans and racing, lots of us will question. They may be once in a lifetime phenoms (which Johaug was/is), but they will just be suspect forever from skeptical fans of sport.
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Great day at the office for the Norwegians.
Really cool to see Harald Amundsen doing so well. He is a young athlete.
Holund and Kruger are both VO2 machines.

I think Norway is the favorite to the relay....

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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Halvard wrote:

I think Norway is the favorite to the relay....

Really going out on a limb there....
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [JDinMA] [ In reply to ]
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Right? LOL. Halvard, I don't think anyone is going to disagree with that pick!

I'm saying US women for silver. We will beat Norway, but not Sweden. Can wait to see the line up and who is skiing what legs.
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [hbog12] [ In reply to ]
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Alright everyone.... pull on your striped socks and get that face paint ready, it's relay time!

Thursday 3/4 @ 7:15 am - Women's 4x5k Relay

The 4x5k relay is run as two classic legs, then two skate legs. In Oberstdorf the skate loop is much harder than the classic loop, so don't be surprised if the skate times are a bit slower than expected. It is a mass start, so I wouldn't be surprised if the group stays pretty well together during the classic, then starts blowing apart on the harder hills in the skate.

I think the favorite is Sweden- they are leading off with classic sprint world champ Jonna Sundling, then have Charlotte Kalla, Ebba Andersson, and Frida Karlsson. Sundling also won gold in the team sprint, so her endurance is clearly there. They will be strong.

Norway will also be excellent with TU Weng and Heidi Weng on classic, and Johaug and Fossesholm on skate. I would expect Johaug to really attack the challenging skate course and blow up the race. She put 54s on the field in the 10k, and could do some real damage here. Fossesholm on the anchor is a first year senior, but she has shown she is more than up for the task this season.

The Russian Ski Federation team is also looking strong, with Stupak, Sorina, and Nepryaeva all having solid results this championship so far. I don't know Kirpichenko as well, but she was 10th in the Skiathlon, so clearly solid. Nepryaeva is still recovering from a couple broken bones in her hand, but it hasn't seemed to impact her too greatly so far.

The US enters with a very good chance at a medal, with a team of Hailey Swirbul, Sadie Maubet Bjornsen, Rosie Brennan, and Jessie Diggins. All four have had some great results this season, but the championship has been tough so far, especially for Hailey and Rosie. Hopefully the wax issues for classic have been resolved and Hailey and Sadie can keep the team in the mix on the first two legs. Rosie going up against Johaug and Andersson is going to be an extreme test, but she was climbing really well early in the 10k skate. Diggins will absolutely send it on the anchor leg, that is guaranteed. If everything comes together I think they can podium.

I don't think any other teams will be a factor, but I could certainly be wrong. Finland was on the podium in Lahti, but the US and Russia are both starter stronger teams tomorrow.

Picks:
1. Sweden
2. Norway
3. USA
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [JDinMA] [ In reply to ]
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This should be one easy victory for Sweden.
The rest of the countries have not had a lot of consistency so anything can happen.
But I will be very surprised if Sweden is not just taking this from the first leg and will be comfortable in front all alone.
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, Sweden 1:39 back after two legs.
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [JDinMA] [ In reply to ]
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JDinMA wrote:
Wow, Sweden 1:39 back after two legs.

This is either the end of Kalla`s career, or some of their waxers or both.., devastating for Sweden.
Will be a very interesting fight for 3rd between US and Germany, both nations deserve a medal after slim winnings so far this championship


A

(post written halfway in the 3rd leg)
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [EiE_] [ In reply to ]
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Oof, that was disappointing. I was worried on that last downhill when it seemed like Krista was easily gliding back into Jessie on every flattish section. Ugh.
Last edited by: JDinMA: Mar 4, 21 5:14
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [JDinMA] [ In reply to ]
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The USA women fought so hard. Really one of their best performances ever. Swirbul had an amazing race considering the skis she was working with.

The USA women skis were bad though. The way the Germans were able to stay even with Rosie & Jessie...WTF!

If it had been -10C and even fair conditions the USA would have crushed Finland and medaled. The Finnish skis were probably like 3-5% better than the USA and that is enough for them to stay in contact. Krista just looked like she barely had to work to keep up with Jessie. Jessie was in her pain mode skiing from 1K on; she didn't have any rhythm because she was working with dogs.

Oh well, hopefully the olympics has fair & cold conditions. At least the USA didn't bomb the wax as bad as Sweden. In fair conditions, Sweden might have been able to challenge Norway.

And also NORWAY...what do they do to their skis? They always have perfect skis. It's infuriating.
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [xcskier66] [ In reply to ]
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The entire waxing "fast skis slow skis" is the dumbest part of this sport (and I really like the sport). It would be great if glide wax was just banned (you can ski fine on raw ptex) and everyone gets the same kick wax of the day for classic races and that's it. Skis are stamped before they go into the wax room to get the approved kick wax and they get stamped coming out.

But I realize the practical limitations, so we have what we have. It will be good when high floros are banned but there will always be something else.
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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So at the top level of skiing, waxing accounts for like 1% of the variance in speed between teams. Nailing the wax isn't that hard; especially in chewed up warm corn snow. As a masters hack, I could probably do a similar wax job to world cup techs. However, there is no way I could compete with a world cup wax tech in terms of selecting skis from a fleet, testing them and then selecting grinds. To win a world champs, you need to have access to the top level of factory support and work well with them.

Ski flex and grinds are way more important than waxing. I would take a good ski with mediocre wax any day over a bad ski with killer wax. Finding the right ski in these conditions is not easy at all.

If every team had to wax with the same wax or no wax, Norway would have an even greater advantage. They have an arsenal of skis and know how to pick them. They bring a grinder with them to world champs. They have skis flown in directly from Norway made for the conditions (see the green base madshus Holund and Fossnholm won on).
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [xcskier66] [ In reply to ]
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xcskier66 wrote:
So at the top level of skiing, waxing accounts for like 1% of the variance in speed between teams. Nailing the wax isn't that hard; especially in chewed up warm corn snow. As a masters hack, I could probably do a similar wax job to world cup techs. However, there is no way I could compete with a world cup wax tech in terms of selecting skis from a fleet, testing them and then selecting grinds. To win a world champs, you need to have access to the top level of factory support and work well with them.

Ski flex and grinds are way more important than waxing. I would take a good ski with mediocre wax any day over a bad ski with killer wax. Finding the right ski in these conditions is not easy at all.

If every team had to wax with the same wax or no wax, Norway would have an even greater advantage. They have an arsenal of skis and know how to pick them. They bring a grinder with them to world champs. They have skis flown in directly from Norway made for the conditions (see the green base madshus Holund and Fossnholm won on).

I totally agree with you, but at least the waxing part in theory can be neutralized.
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [xcskier66] [ In reply to ]
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xcskier66 wrote:
So at the top level of skiing, waxing accounts for like 1% of the variance in speed between teams. Nailing the wax isn't that hard; especially in chewed up warm corn snow. As a masters hack, I could probably do a similar wax job to world cup techs. However, there is no way I could compete with a world cup wax tech in terms of selecting skis from a fleet, testing them and then selecting grinds. To win a world champs, you need to have access to the top level of factory support and work well with them.

Ski flex and grinds are way more important than waxing. I would take a good ski with mediocre wax any day over a bad ski with killer wax. Finding the right ski in these conditions is not easy at all.

If every team had to wax with the same wax or no wax, Norway would have an even greater advantage. They have an arsenal of skis and know how to pick them. They bring a grinder with them to world champs. They have skis flown in directly from Norway made for the conditions (see the green base madshus Holund and Fossnholm won on).

It's closer to a max of 3%. https://www.ntnu.edu/.../going-for-the-glide

Even that only amounts for, what, 30 seconds in todays race? Assuming it was the full 3% too.

You're right in that it all works together, and each part is important. "Bad Wax" gets blamed, but it could be any part of the process that failed.

For junior racing we have had a "paraffin series" for years, and it's a great idea. For major events we've talked about standardizing the wax; athletes submit their skis and the wax techs would prep them all equally with the same applications. I hope it happens. When it does, it just means ski selection will be the important part of the process though.
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [xcskier66] [ In reply to ]
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I cannot remember Americans complaining about unfair waxing at the last olympics when Diggens had amazing skis and got a gold medal..........

The first leg women from Sweden used the pair she won gold medal on. So her bad kick was all about the klister.

A nation does not have skis. The athlete has their own skis.
Yes Madshus has shown up with some new skis. But Madshus has been one of the worst skis the last years so they need to improve.
Rossignol is usually good on warm and wet conditions.

Fun fact. Marie Fossesholm is only 19. She is also a medical school student. And jr European champion in mtb.
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [Durhamskier] [ In reply to ]
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Durhamskier wrote:


For junior racing we have had a "paraffin series" for years, and it's a great idea. For major events we've talked about standardizing the wax; athletes submit their skis and the wax techs would prep them all equally with the same applications. I hope it happens. When it does, it just means ski selection will be the important part of the process though.



For juniors in Norway they have tried this setup for a while to reduce the glider/ wax arms race as the cost is getting astronomical even at national junior levels. Everyone hands in their skis the day before and get them the next morning with the same glider on all skis. And no Fluor based waxes are used to prevent harm to the wax techs and the environment.

So far the feedback has been good. But it works best for skate events
Last edited by: EiE_: Mar 4, 21 9:22
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Personally I don't view waxing as unfair. It's all part of the game. I was disappointed when it seemed liked Jessie lacked glide compared to Krista, but full credit to the Finnish team. It should also be said that Krista skied an awesome final leg- she's a multiple Olympic medalist for a reason!

For Norway I was impressed by Heidi today. I had picked her to medal in the skiathlon, and while 9th isn't bad by ANY stretch, her leg today was a much better representation of her strength.
Last edited by: JDinMA: Mar 4, 21 9:25
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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I cannot remember Americans complaining about unfair waxing at the last olympics when Diggens had amazing skis and got a gold medal..........


Just can't help yourself, can ya brutha?


"one eye doubles my eyesight, so things don't look half bad" John Hiatt
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [moneydog59] [ In reply to ]
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moneydog59 wrote:
I cannot remember Americans complaining about unfair waxing at the last olympics when Diggens had amazing skis and got a gold medal..........


Just can't help yourself, can ya brutha?


I am pointing out lack of consistency.
You cannot like waxing only when your favorite skiers are doing well.
Waxing is a part of skiing.

FYI: I have been a xc-skiing coach in the USA so I have done my part.
I do not understand why using a good example as Jessie Diggins amazing skis during the olympics as a problem.
You cannot win on bad skis. More power to her
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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welp...Dev is Canadian, right? And maybe second, are "Americans' complaining/whining about unfairness or is it more of a complaint directed at the US team (not the athletes, the ski techs) at their inability to provide the athletes with skis that are on par with other countries?


"one eye doubles my eyesight, so things don't look half bad" John Hiatt
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Re: Cross Country Ski World Champs 2021 [moneydog59] [ In reply to ]
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I am watching Swedish TV right now.
The Swedes made big mistakes with the klister today.
But do the Swedes ask for similar wax?
No, they are explaining what went wrong.
Waxing is part of the sport.


It is actually quite ironic that on a mostly long distance triathlon discussion from, people are asking for standardized equipment. Especially when most of the discussions are about buying speed.
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