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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [Thorax] [ In reply to ]
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Does the Cervelo includes a power meter?
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
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Similar story for me. Like most of us, I can make one or two sizes from just about any brand work for me (usually fall between a 54/56 or M/L), but on the speedmax rim brake, given their seat height and stack min/max numbers, I wouldn't fit on anything. The new disc brake version seems to be a little more friendly, not sure.
But price and geography (for service/parts/warranty), probably a pass. The new Argon looks very attractive..
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [frantona] [ In reply to ]
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frantona wrote:
Does the Cervelo includes a power meter?
No. I already have two. And DT Swiss ARC > Zipp 858.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Canyon might not be the most innovative brand but I was always really happy with the price. But the new Speedmax is now as expensive as the high end brands which is quite disappointing.
But the thing that sets me up the most is the fact that Canyon just went shopping at all the big brands and copy+paste it on the new Speedmax. I always thought also, that Specialized has a patent on the hydration system in the down tube (that´s why felt wasn´t allowed to use it). Why would Canyon be allowed to use it?







And especially since there are so many other parts that are simply copy+paste. I would expact way more innovations for this amount of money!
Sorry Canyon, but this time I am out.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [TriBoom] [ In reply to ]
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I wasn't aware seat and chain stays were proprietary information

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [TriBoom] [ In reply to ]
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TriBoom wrote:
Why would Canyon be allowed to use it?

Patent protections don't last forever, otherwise you'd never have "generic" drugs. Design patents only last 14 years in the US, there is a possibility to achieve an extension but that requires Specialized to spend the money on that process. Also, Specialized went away from that in their newest design, however I kind of wonder how the new Scott Gel Bottle part doesn't have issues with the patent on the newest hydration stuff that Specialized has.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
TriBoom wrote:
Why would Canyon be allowed to use it?


Patent protections don't last forever, otherwise you'd never have "generic" drugs. Design patents only last 14 years in the US, there is a possibility to achieve an extension but that requires Specialized to spend the money on that process. Also, Specialized went away from that in their newest design, however I kind of wonder how the new Scott Gel Bottle part doesn't have issues with the patent on the newest hydration stuff that Specialized has.

Dont forget that patents can be shared
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [GatorRacer] [ In reply to ]
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Yes this is also true. Canyon and Scott may have purchased a license to the patent for all we know.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
TriBoom wrote:
Why would Canyon be allowed to use it?

Patent protections don't last forever, otherwise you'd never have "generic" drugs. Design patents only last 14 years in the US, there is a possibility to achieve an extension but that requires Specialized to spend the money on that process. Also, Specialized went away from that in their newest design, however I kind of wonder how the new Scott Gel Bottle part doesn't have issues with the patent on the newest hydration stuff that Specialized has.

My theory is that it was such a PITA in practice that Specialized decided that if other bike brands wanted to piss off their customers they should be free to do so 😂

Seriously though, I’ve used the Shiv bladder a lot, probably had it in and out of the frame at least 50x, and I can tell you that the Canyon implementation is going to SUCK.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure this bike is getting the credit it should. For $12K you are getting a halo Tri/TT bike with AXS, powermeter, and 858 NSW wheels. Putting it against the other disc brake TT superbikes, this is what I see:

Canyon Speedmax CFR Disc

There is nothing "extrananeous" about the Canyon, and yet it has the "holy trinity" of storage that triathletes seem to crave: snack box, hydration, and flat kit. It's the only bike as far as I can tell that has all three fully integrated within the frame. The integration is so complete and so slick that a number of the early comments in this thread referenced initial photos/screenshots and bemoaned the fact that this new Speedmax would not include storage or hydration. But it does! And it's innocuous enough that even the 20K/40K TTer will appreciate and take advantage of these features. I'm also, armed with nothing but anecdata, thinking that the wide fork of the Speedmax may play nicely with trispokes and other similar wheels up front.

Cervelo P5 Disc

An amazing bike, no question, but it's simply not as clean as the Canyon. You have a nosecone head tube that is not flush with the fork. Stem to bento box transition has a gap, and then the bento box sits on top of what on the Canyon is a flush top tube. For hydration. you need to slap a bottle somewhere outside the frame (down tube or BTA). On the plus side, the front end will be easier to move up/down, but the Canyon doesn't appear overly difficult in that respect.

Scott Plasma Premium

I can get past the weird aesthetic of the base frameset, but then we've got storage boxes slapped on, a hydration tube way too exposed, and BTA storage in front of the steering axis. To top it off, the bike is $15K.

Orbea Ordu

This one seems to be getting a lot of love here, and there are some things to like no question (flush top tube/base bar, mono riser), but I can't get past the fact that the below downtube storage looks like an e-bike battery. And again, that and the bottle are not integrated - they're slapped onto the frame. The closer we can get to a bike that looks like a track/pursuit bike, the better, and this isn't it.

** I can only upload 5 photos per post, so I'll continue with the last two bikes below **

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Shiv Tri / TT


I'm not quite sure what to make of the Shiv Tri. It has integrated hydration, but do I really want to deal with that massive water cooler in the back? And while I can credibly show up at a club or non-UCI TT with the Canyon, is that really going to fly with the Shiv Tri? The Shiv TT, on the other hand, is quite clean, but maybe too much? It seems like it's trying so hard to be a "climbing" TT bike that I'm skeptical how it performs in more typical circumstances, i.e. flat and rolling terrain. I do like how the TT comes with an "extra" Roval 321 disc in addition to the CLX64 "training" wheelset, though.

Argon E119+ Tri Disc


This one has something no other bike does (yet): integrated disc brakes (photo below). And the rest of the bike looks really nicely done, including the 51 Speedshop front end. But we don't have any integrated hydration/storage, and so we are left with another bento box affixed to, and abruptly ending on, the top tube. If you need hydration, you are going to need to add a bottle or rig something up. So as much as I appreciate the integrated brakes, the other lack of integration gives the Canyon the edge.


And just to be fair, here is that exposed brake cable that the Argon (and hopefully future tri/TT bikes) dispenses with, you can see how everything is smooth and clean on the left side of the photo and then on the right side, that brake cable has to go and ruin things:


I think Canyon has done really well here!

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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You are mentioning that only the Speedmax has full integration but so does the Shiv. I think the bigger shock to everyone was first that Canyon did not come up with anything new / not seen before and that the price is very high considering they are running a B2C model which should allow for an extra 30-40% margin. Still a nice bike but so are all the other bikes you listed. Not sure why you would consider it an issue to rock up with the Shiv at a local race but that's up to everyone to decide for themselves.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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refthimos wrote:
Argon E119+ Tri Disc


This one has something no other bike does (yet): integrated disc brakes (photo below). And the rest of the bike looks really nicely done, including the 51 Speedshop front end. But we don't have any integrated hydration/storage, and so we are left with another bento box affixed to, and abruptly ending on, the top tube. If you need hydration, you are going to need to add a bottle or rig something up. So as much as I appreciate the integrated brakes, the other lack of integration gives the Canyon the edge.


And just to be fair, here is that exposed brake cable that the Argon (and hopefully future tri/TT bikes) dispenses with, you can see how everything is smooth and clean on the left side of the photo and then on the right side, that brake cable has to go and ruin things:


I think Canyon has done really well here!

Really nice write up of the bikes!

The Argon has flat storage above the bottom bracket as well, and then they made the bento go into the frame so it has significantly more storage than the bento leads you to believe. It's missing integrated hydration - but it's exceptional as well.

Thanks for the work on these though - Canyon and the Argon are my favorites and if I win the lottery it would be between those two for sure.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [Tomaz021] [ In reply to ]
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Tomaz021 wrote:
You are mentioning that only the Speedmax has full integration but so does the Shiv.
I might be wrong, but with the Shiv Tri, doesn't it have two storage compartments, one the water tank in the back and the second *either* food or a flat kit? The Canyon has all three. And it's admittedly an aesthetic point, but the water tank on the Shiv isn't integrated into the frame itself, it attaches. So it's not completely integrated in the same way as the Canyon

Tomaz021 wrote:
Not sure why you would consider it an issue to rock up with the Shiv at a local race but that's up to everyone to decide for themselves.
Fair enough, my point was mainly that at the vast majority of USAC TTs, there is no UCI jig or officials checking to see if your bike is UCI legal. So the Canyon will likely be just fine to race. But roll up in the Shiv Tri? I could see some eyebrows, if not protests, raised.

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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refthimos wrote:
I'm not sure this bike is getting the credit it should. For $12K you are getting a halo Tri/TT bike with AXS, powermeter, and 858 NSW wheels.

This. If you spec the others with AXS and 858, then the price gap grows significantly
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with internal bladder on the canyon makes for the most elegant front end hydration solution. I have some doubts about how it works in practice though.

A real challenge with water bladders of this type is that when empty or partially empty the walls stick together making them difficult to fill and use. Camelbak has been optimizing solutions to this problem for years and that is why you fill camelbaks via a very large opening in the top of the bladder and then drain them via a hose connected at the bottom of the bladder. The bladder on the Specialized Shiv shares has these same principle design characteristics.

Looking at the design of the Speedmax bladder (https://www.canyon.com/...wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds) it is filled and drained via the same bottle neck port at what is the top of the bladder. For filling the size of the opening is not ideal while for draining the location is wrong. The bigger picture is that Standard BTA bottles are aero neutral with fancier systems improving aerodynamics. So its a balance of aesthetics vs usability and not about aerodynamic performance. Personally would rather stick an aftermarket system on a Cervelo, Orbea, Argon-18, etc than have to fight with Speedmax.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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Refthimos, thank you for your contribution to the thread.

When the bike was released, I ordered a CF SLX di2 build and look forward to its expected shipping date December 28. Looking at Canyon's website, there is a lot of love for this bike in the bike-buying population as delivery dates for many versions of the bike have pushed back until June.

For me, Canyon's online distribution model is a HUGE plus. I did not have to negotiate for price, haggle on price with my LBS where I have close relationships, or wonder who got a better deal. I got a price that is fair in my view for a bike that I prefer over the previous leading candidates to replace my 7.5 year old P5. (Scott Plasma 6, Cervelo PX). In the Taiwan market at least, even with the import tax I will pay, the Canyon was far cheaper than either of these bikes, and for me, I prefer the look and functionality of the Canyon over both.

The bike arrives assembled. I will need to fit the seat post and the wheels. I will leave the adjustment of my aerobar to my bike fitter, exactly as I would do if I bought a bike sold and constructed by my LBS. Again, I don't see how this disadvantage and it is another cost saving as my LBS charges to build bikes even if you buy them from the store. (which is fair, I agree with paying people for their work!) Fixing and adjusting normal wear and tear items will be the same for this bike as any other I could buy from my LBS.

I will order a few extra derailleur hangers to have on hand, but the rest of the stuff on the bike that can go wrong is mainly the drive train and wheels. Living in Taiwan, these parts are probably made here, (DT Swiss's wheels are!) Regardless of where you buy the bike, if you need to make a warranty claim on a frame, it's not a one day process. The 2 year warranty and 6 year guarantee (same as warranty but you have to pay for shipping expenses after the 2 year warranty) to me is reasonable because I hope in six years time there will be more innovations on the market and/or I will have different desires than I do today. Customer service has been outrageously awesome; the fit team sent me detailed information and knowledge about the choices I made. And if I have a question...website chat has been great.

I do not rely on my LBS for bike fits, choosing a professional fitter instead who helped me confirm the size of the frame and the few specific components I needed to choose for my build. (2 different stems, 3 lengths for the extensions). I do wish Canyon would let me change the crank lengths when I order the bike; it would seem an easy opportunity to further extend the benefits of their sales model. The flexibility in the fitting kit Canyon provides with every bike is more than enough for my current fit and any foreseeable evolution of that position. I think this would hold true for the vast majority of riders, even many of those who feel their body is exceptionally oddly proportioned.

A lot of people have talked about the internal hydration. I will use mine for water only in race and training and that makes cleaning easy. If I do use a sports drink in it, I will do what I already do with my trail running Hydrapak bladder...wash it with a denture cleaner, turn it inside out to dry, and voila, no residual taste leftover. At aid stations, my strategy with my BTA was always grab a first bottle of water and hold between my teeth, grab another bottle and put it in my rear cage, refill the BTA with the bottle from my teeth, drink any left over, toss bottle at/near disposal point. This will be no different except less splash, more room for my forearms up front, and less steering moment from sidewinds hitting the bottle. Other than the bladder costs more than a bottle ($45USD) or wanting to freeze drinks as mentioned in one post, I cannot see how this is not a step forward. I'll be sure to post if experience proves me right or wrong!

I'm really excited about this bike and I hope it will be blast to ride and enjoy!

My 2 cents (or more) from the peanut gallery!
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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A nice read and interesting comparison between the bikes, but I think the p5 disc should be replaced with the PX when comparing a brands triathlon bikes. The PX is obviously the UCI illegal fully integrated Tri bike, the P5D can serve both purposes as Tri and UCI, so integration is never going to be as good, even though it is still "fast". You can get an aftermarket internal bladder adaptor for the PX, albeit at extra cost.

On the face of it the Canyons are still better value than other brands at this moment in time at full retail price, but that value isnt as good as it used to be and I think that is most peoples complaint. This is especially pertinent when in a years time other brands have their prices reduced up to 30% to clear stock for next years new paint jobs, whilst canyon hardly ever reduce more than 5-10%. That then makes the canyon look pricey for a bike with no local support if you intend to buy a year down the line.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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Bladders' in the down tube are nice at hiding water storage but for a long course you will see people adding bottles somewhere. So the comparison of a bike without internal water storage is moot unless you are only doing short courses.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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Shiv has the spare kit in the down tube beneath the bento box...
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [scott8888] [ In reply to ]
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scott8888 wrote:
I agree with internal bladder on the canyon makes for the most elegant front end hydration solution. I have some doubts about how it works in practice though.

A real challenge with water bladders of this type is that when empty or partially empty the walls stick together making them difficult to fill and use. Camelbak has been optimizing solutions to this problem for years and that is why you fill camelbaks via a very large opening in the top of the bladder and then drain them via a hose connected at the bottom of the bladder. The bladder on the Specialized Shiv shares has these same principle design characteristics.

Looking at the design of the Speedmax bladder (https://www.canyon.com/...wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds) it is filled and drained via the same bottle neck port at what is the top of the bladder. For filling the size of the opening is not ideal while for draining the location is wrong. The bigger picture is that Standard BTA bottles are aero neutral with fancier systems improving aerodynamics. So its a balance of aesthetics vs usability and not about aerodynamic performance. Personally would rather stick an aftermarket system on a Cervelo, Orbea, Argon-18, etc than have to fight with Speedmax.

Nailed it WRT hydration.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [Rideon77] [ In reply to ]
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Rideon77 wrote:
Bladders' in the down tube are nice at hiding water storage but for a long course you will see people adding bottles somewhere. So the comparison of a bike without internal water storage is moot unless you are only doing short courses.

I do long course and my bike split comes in at about 5 hours.

I will use one bottle behind the saddle and the bladder. Each aid station I can grab and store 2 bottles worth of water; more than enough for steady drinking between aid stations for my needs. Refill the bladder with the bottle in the rear cage, put the empty bottle back into the cage, dispose at next aid station.

If you buy the seat post mounted bottle holder, it comes with the option to store 1 or 2 bottles. I think 2 bottles behind the saddle would still be less of an aero penalty than on the downtube; also depends on how quick you are about getting the bottle and getting back into the aero posiiton.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [Darren325] [ In reply to ]
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Why would anyone get the CFR when for the same price you could pretty much get the CF with enough spare coin for a new disc wheel? What am I missing besides a few grams of weight?
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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I went through that thought process...but had the silver chrome colour been available at the time, I would have made that irrational choice for the CFR over the CF SLX. In terms of the CFR vs the CF, for me the style watts meant the CF was not ever a consideration though I certainly appreciate that with the right parts it is a fast bike.
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Re: Canyon Speedmax Disc [Darren325] [ In reply to ]
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I'd want an all black or at least something other than this color. I have a white bike & won't ever buy another white bike...they keep the grease and marks showing up for years to come. Not sure why Canyon doesn't have at least a nude carbon look or black as an option. Guessing Lange had a custom paint job...options would at least be a step forward for me on that.
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