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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
LAI wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
about 50% of the flats I tended to were Corsa Speeds.


Everything I have read has said the same thing and friends personal experience mirrored that, but damn if I didn't get a lot of miles out of mine. Like I said, I might be an outlier in terms of tire durability or really, really lucky. I should go play the lotto...


I'm n=2. I've used Corsa Speed for TT, RR, criterium, and non-wood track for years now, and they've been just fine.

I can only remember one flat off-hand. That was a pinch flat in a 100-mile TT. (tubeless pinch flat, no less, which was a feat).

I've since gone to GP5000TL for RR and criterium for grip purposes (Corsa Speed grip in the wet leaves a lot to be desired), but sticking the CS for now for TT/track. I've worn 3-4 sets down to the casing.

I'm in the down to the chords camp too. I think a lot of people just don't pay attention to where they're riding. I'm pretty sure very few people do the "brush the tire" trick with their fingers when they run through stuff either. I was taught that early and it is pretty much reflexive at this point.



Heath Dotson
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Xavier wrote:
But are outrageously thin at 144g! In our roller testing ~5w faster than Corsa Speeds at 45kph for a pair of wheels, when coupled with Vittoria latex inners. We also did indoor velodrome testing last week which corroborated these results, using one of our AEOX Titans (100mm deep) as a test wheel. [/Quoten]

What is a typical error of you crr measurements?
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Xavier wrote:
I should probably do the Pista clincher (they don't do a Pista Speed clincher but the normal Pista has graphene etc.), they're what I use for training on the track and it's a similar construction!

That's what I used last year. Basically a Corsa Speed without the tubeless stuff. I think they quit making them though, only "Pista Control" is listed on Vittoria's site now.

The older version VFR was quite small for a 23; are the new ones the same... also small?

I don't have a problem with using fragile tires in a TT. You're very unlikely to run over a puncturing object if you stay off the shoulder, and roughness, cracks, and potholes are no more likely to damage a fragile tire. The sidewall casing is the same as their more durable road tires... true for Veloflex, Vittoria, and Continental anyway.
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [BergHugi] [ In reply to ]
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In terms of Crr, around 0.000025 typically.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Xavier wrote:
But are outrageously thin at 144g! In our roller testing ~5w faster than Corsa Speeds at 45kph for a pair of wheels, when coupled with Vittoria latex inners. We also did indoor velodrome testing last week which corroborated these results, using one of our AEOX Titans (100mm deep) as a test wheel.

https://aero-coach.co.uk/...ling-resistance-data

Vittoria latex inner tubes?
Use vredestein Xavier, you are leaving 0,77w on the table at 45k/h.
See tour test 07-2020
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Jo O.] [ In reply to ]
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Jo O. wrote:
Xavier wrote:
But are outrageously thin at 144g! In our roller testing ~5w faster than Corsa Speeds at 45kph for a pair of wheels, when coupled with Vittoria latex inners. We also did indoor velodrome testing last week which corroborated these results, using one of our AEOX Titans (100mm deep) as a test wheel.

https://aero-coach.co.uk/...ling-resistance-data


Vittoria latex inner tubes?
Use vredestein Xavier, you are leaving 0,77w on the table at 45k/h.
See tour test 07-2020

Got some Schwalbe and Wolfpack inner tubes on the way to test for the next inner tube update, will add Vredestein into the mix.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Xavier wrote:
Got some Schwalbe and Wolfpack inner tubes on the way to test for the next inner tube update, will add Vredestein into the mix.

Was looking at those Schwalbes this am and thinking to myself I wonder if Xavier is going to test these. They claim latex(esque) CRR numbers. I just don't know about a plastic valve stem. Also, the $$$?? but they are light and I might grab a 27.5 for a spare. Curious to hear your feedback on the plastic stem.

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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Jo O.] [ In reply to ]
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Jo O. wrote:
Xavier wrote:
But are outrageously thin at 144g! In our roller testing ~5w faster than Corsa Speeds at 45kph for a pair of wheels, when coupled with Vittoria latex inners. We also did indoor velodrome testing last week which corroborated these results, using one of our AEOX Titans (100mm deep) as a test wheel.

https://aero-coach.co.uk/...ling-resistance-data


Vittoria latex inner tubes?
Use vredestein Xavier, you are leaving 0,77w on the table at 45k/h.
See tour test 07-2020

Any info on which sizes of tubes and in which tyre (model, size, installed width)? I tested Vittoria vs. Vredestein a year or two ago and if anything the Vittoria was slightly faster, though difference was negligible and around noise level (~0.2W/tyre at 50kph).
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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LAI wrote:
Xavier wrote:
Got some Schwalbe and Wolfpack inner tubes on the way to test for the next inner tube update, will add Vredestein into the mix.


Was looking at those Schwalbes this am and thinking to myself I wonder if Xavier is going to test these. They claim latex(esque) CRR numbers. I just don't know about a plastic valve stem. Also, the $$$?? but they are light and I might grab a 27.5 for a spare. Curious to hear your feedback on the plastic stem.

If it's similar construction valve stem to the Tubolitos then I know people have had issues with them, but personally I haven't found it to be any problem

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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MTM wrote:
Jo O. wrote:
Xavier wrote:
But are outrageously thin at 144g! In our roller testing ~5w faster than Corsa Speeds at 45kph for a pair of wheels, when coupled with Vittoria latex inners. We also did indoor velodrome testing last week which corroborated these results, using one of our AEOX Titans (100mm deep) as a test wheel.

https://aero-coach.co.uk/...ling-resistance-data


Vittoria latex inner tubes?
Use vredestein Xavier, you are leaving 0,77w on the table at 45k/h.
See tour test 07-2020

Any info on which sizes of tubes and in which tyre (model, size, installed width)? I tested Vittoria vs. Vredestein a year or two ago and if anything the Vittoria was slightly faster, though difference was negligible and around noise level (~0.2W/tyre at 50kph).

Vredestein superlite 20-25 15w
Vittoria competition 25-28. 15,3w
Michelin air comp 22-23. 15,4w
Challenge seamless 19-28. 15,1w
35k per h
Schwalbe pro one tire
85 kg system weight
7 bars
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Jo O.] [ In reply to ]
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That's the thicker 25-28 Vittoria inner tube, I wonder if that's why it's coming out slower and not what MTM found if he used a 19-23 tube?

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Jo O.] [ In reply to ]
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Jo O. wrote:
Vredestein superlite 20-25 15w
Vittoria competition 25-28. 15,3w
Michelin air comp 22-23. 15,4w
Challenge seamless 19-28. 15,1w
35k per h
Schwalbe pro one tire
85 kg system weight
7 bars

It's a pittance anyway.

Back 12 years ago or so, Vredestein made some super thick latex tubes. I still have two in good shape! They are 1mm thick and weigh ~110g. Unlike all the other latex tubes I've used, these are very robust. They do not extrude into small cuts and they are not distorted, stretched, and looking funky. They seem to however pinch flat and puncture from sharp objects (like thorns, staples, wires) more readily than the thin tubes.

I could not tell a difference in Crr between these and thin Vred tubes in my roller testing, but I'd put my error margin of at least 1% on that.
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Jo O.] [ In reply to ]
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Jo O. wrote:
MTM wrote:
Jo O. wrote:
Xavier wrote:
But are outrageously thin at 144g! In our roller testing ~5w faster than Corsa Speeds at 45kph for a pair of wheels, when coupled with Vittoria latex inners. We also did indoor velodrome testing last week which corroborated these results, using one of our AEOX Titans (100mm deep) as a test wheel.

https://aero-coach.co.uk/...ling-resistance-data


Vittoria latex inner tubes?
Use vredestein Xavier, you are leaving 0,77w on the table at 45k/h.
See tour test 07-2020


Any info on which sizes of tubes and in which tyre (model, size, installed width)? I tested Vittoria vs. Vredestein a year or two ago and if anything the Vittoria was slightly faster, though difference was negligible and around noise level (~0.2W/tyre at 50kph).


Vredestein superlite 20-25 15w
Vittoria competition 25-28. 15,3w
Michelin air comp 22-23. 15,4w
Challenge seamless 19-28. 15,1w
35k per h
Schwalbe pro one tire
85 kg system weight
7 bars

Thanks. I wonder what their error bars are like, if they might all be within their testing resolution (though if it's roller testing the resolution should be fairly good). I recall that Michelin latex tubes were testing slightly worse by people, but other brands seemed to be pretty much the same.
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Xavier wrote:
That's the thicker 25-28 Vittoria inner tube, I wonder if that's why it's coming out slower and not what MTM found if he used a 19-23 tube?

I actually also used the 25-28mm Vittoria tube in my testing - albeit the old one with brass valve as the new one with aluminum valve wasn't out at the time. IIRC the new one has some graphene in it (like Silca's - which I think Josh said should make it ever so slightly faster, but who knows).

I actually tested the thicker/larger Vittoria tube as it seems more sturdy as rruff mentions, so it was to see if there was any drawback to running that vs. the very thin Vredestein. At least with regards to installation and general handling it seems more sturdy with the thicker and larger tube. My totally anecdoctal evidence suggest the Vittoria 25-28mm tubes are holding up fine against sharp objects penetrating the tyre - I had several sharp flints penetrate my tyre during last winter with none of them puncturing the tube. But the thin Vredestein might have held up fine as well?

Also, I've been wondering whether a stretched thin tube has more or less hystersis than a thicker less stretched tube. Maybe if Vredestein made a 25-28mm tube that would be the best?
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
LAI wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
about 50% of the flats I tended to were Corsa Speeds.


Everything I have read has said the same thing and friends personal experience mirrored that, but damn if I didn't get a lot of miles out of mine. Like I said, I might be an outlier in terms of tire durability or really, really lucky. I should go play the lotto...


I'm n=2. I've used Corsa Speed for TT, RR, criterium, and non-wood track for years now, and they've been just fine.
Same here. I really really hate to let people in on this, but Corsa Speeds are actually pretty robust. I have a ton of experience riding them -- since they came out I've used them for all my TTs and Crits, many road races, and one Tri (IMSC 2018), with no flats in races (and only one flat in training). I used one on a spare wheel in the Chico stage race last year through five miles of pretty deep gravel that you go through twice, no flats. Two years ago I used one on the front in Copperopolis RR, where about half of racers flat and DNF, again no flats for me. After a few hundred miles of TTs I swap them off my race wheels and wear them out the rest of the way in training, so I've ridden them into the ground numerous times. The rubber doesn't last very long for me -- maybe 750 miles total until the casing shows through? -- but I've even ridden them on dirt/rocky single track trails numerous times with no flats. (If I recall correctly I did have one flat once in training but it was on the road on a pretty worn out tire and I don't remember the exact circumstances.) I'm not saying they're the most robust tires around, but honestly they are not that fragile - not obviously worse than anything else I ride, and way better than Michelins! (which I otherwise really like but the sidewalls split open at the first sign of gravel)
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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MTM wrote:
Xavier wrote:
That's the thicker 25-28 Vittoria inner tube, I wonder if that's why it's coming out slower and not what MTM found if he used a 19-23 tube?


I actually also used the 25-28mm Vittoria tube in my testing - albeit the old one with brass valve as the new one with aluminum valve wasn't out at the time. IIRC the new one has some graphene in it (like Silca's - which I think Josh said should make it ever so slightly faster, but who knows).

I actually tested the thicker/larger Vittoria tube as it seems more sturdy as rruff mentions, so it was to see if there was any drawback to running that vs. the very thin Vredestein. At least with regards to installation and general handling it seems more sturdy with the thicker and larger tube. My totally anecdoctal evidence suggest the Vittoria 25-28mm tubes are holding up fine against sharp objects penetrating the tyre - I had several sharp flints penetrate my tyre during last winter with none of them puncturing the tube. But the thin Vredestein might have held up fine as well?

Also, I've been wondering whether a stretched thin tube has more or less hystersis than a thicker less stretched tube. Maybe if Vredestein made a 25-28mm tube that would be the best?

If I get the chance to test different size latex inners I'll give it a go. Just got a RevoLoop inner tube which is really light, supposedly the same speed as latex etc. so that'll be interesting to test.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [lanierb] [ In reply to ]
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lanierb wrote:
trail wrote:
LAI wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
about 50% of the flats I tended to were Corsa Speeds.


Everything I have read has said the same thing and friends personal experience mirrored that, but damn if I didn't get a lot of miles out of mine. Like I said, I might be an outlier in terms of tire durability or really, really lucky. I should go play the lotto...


I'm n=2. I've used Corsa Speed for TT, RR, criterium, and non-wood track for years now, and they've been just fine.

Same here. I really really hate to let people in on this, but Corsa Speeds are actually pretty robust. I have a ton of experience riding them -- since they came out I've used them for all my TTs and Crits, many road races, and one Tri (IMSC 2018), with no flats in races (and only one flat in training). I used one on a spare wheel in the Chico stage race last year through five miles of pretty deep gravel that you go through twice, no flats. Two years ago I used one on the front in Copperopolis RR, where about half of racers flat and DNF, again no flats for me. After a few hundred miles of TTs I swap them off my race wheels and wear them out the rest of the way in training, so I've ridden them into the ground numerous times. The rubber doesn't last very long for me -- maybe 750 miles total until the casing shows through? -- but I've even ridden them on dirt/rocky single track trails numerous times with no flats. (If I recall correctly I did have one flat once in training but it was on the road on a pretty worn out tire and I don't remember the exact circumstances.) I'm not saying they're the most robust tires around, but honestly they are not that fragile - not obviously worse than anything else I ride, and way better than Michelins! (which I otherwise really like but the sidewalls split open at the first sign of gravel)

It's funny isn't it - I've had such good experience with Corsa Speeds as do a lot of our race team, but we get feedback from some customers who've had loads of problems. I suspect the same might end up being true with the Veloflex Records.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
I could hardly get out of my driveway on the Corsa Speeds without getting a flat! Those Veloflexes might not make it out of my garage!

I've done six TTs on Corsa Speeds V2 (using latex inner tubes) without getting a flat or cut.
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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RichardL wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
I could hardly get out of my driveway on the Corsa Speeds without getting a flat! Those Veloflexes might not make it out of my garage!


I've done six TTs on Corsa Speeds V2 (using latex inner tubes) without getting a flat or cut.

I risked a local TT on a Pista Speed and it was great. There was about .8 miles of pot holes and loose asphalt chunks in the 10 mile course, no cuts, or any other issues even after getting nervous about bounding through a few rough patches.
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Xavier wrote:
I should probably do the Pista clincher (they don't do a Pista Speed clincher but the normal Pista has graphene etc.), they're what I use for training on the track and it's a similar construction!

That's what I used last year. Basically a Corsa Speed without the tubeless stuff. I think they quit making them though, only "Pista Control" is listed on Vittoria's site now.

The older version VFR was quite small for a 23; are the new ones the same... also small?

I don't have a problem with using fragile tires in a TT. You're very unlikely to run over a puncturing object if you stay off the shoulder, and roughness, cracks, and potholes are no more likely to damage a fragile tire. The sidewall casing is the same as their more durable road tires... true for Veloflex, Vittoria, and Continental anyway.

Yes, the 2020 Veloflex Records are small. The 23s measure about 24 mm on my rims, where for example Corsa Speeds are about 1 mm wider. VFR are also small in "vertical dimension", i.e. they are "not tall".

I tried them on a training ride. And flatted. But only once :|. They do feel fast.
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [jpiik] [ In reply to ]
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jpiik wrote:
Yes, the 2020 Veloflex Records are small. The 23s measure about 24 mm on my rims, where for example Corsa Speeds are about 1 mm wider. VFR are also small in "vertical dimension", i.e. they are "not tall".

I tried them on a training ride. And flatted. But only once :|. They do feel fast.

I'll have to remeasure my speeds, but I recall them being 24mm on my rims (17&19 internal front and back, respectively). Were you running the 1.0s or the 2.0s? If the latter, did they grow in size? My supersonic 23 also measures 24 on my Bonty D3. If Records come in at ≤ 24mm I think I am winning on the aero front. In regards to comfort I'm hoping for that classic veloflex ride.

Also, what pressure did you run at and how much do you weigh? Sucks on the flat.

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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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LAI wrote:
jpiik wrote:
Yes, the 2020 Veloflex Records are small. The 23s measure about 24 mm on my rims, where for example Corsa Speeds are about 1 mm wider. VFR are also small in "vertical dimension", i.e. they are "not tall".
I tried them on a training ride. And flatted. But only once :|. They do feel fast.


I'll have to remeasure my speeds, but I recall them being 24mm on my rims (17&19 internal front and back, respectively). Were you running the 1.0s or the 2.0s? If the latter, did they grow in size? My supersonic 23 also measures 24 on my Bonty D3. If Records come in at ≤ 24mm I think I am winning on the aero front. In regards to comfort I'm hoping for that classic veloflex ride.

Also, what pressure did you run at and how much do you weigh? Sucks on the flat.

My rims are 17 mm internal. The Corsa Speed (v 1.0) measurement was from memory, but I think they measured closer to 25 than 24 mm.

I'm about 66 kg ~145 lb, pressure was around 80 psi. The flat was from a small, sharp rock. There was quite a lot of debris on the roads. I think for races where you are on the middle of the road where it is cleaner, they can be manageable. But I also concur with the others that Corsa Speeds have been - surprisingly? - robust for me.
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [jpiik] [ In reply to ]
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jpiik wrote:
The flat was from a small, sharp rock.

Sidewall?
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
jpiik wrote:
The flat was from a small, sharp rock.


Sidewall?

No, in the middle.
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Re: New Veloflex Records beat Vittoria Corsa Speeds [jpiik] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think we typically have rocks that are sharp enough to go through tread... even the wimpy VFR tread. I get slashed sidewalls a fair bit though.
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