That's funny :-) But that's why the cone is in Beta so they can fine tune it. I really wish they would start administering the ZHQ Anti-sandbagging green cones in more races! This technology was released in early April, it's a half a year later! C'mon Zwift HQ throw us a bone and start expanding the races and series that use this technology!!

What I'm simply asking of Zwift HQ is to control what they can control. The vast majority of Zwift races follow this scheme:

• A category – FTP of 4.0+w/kg
• B category – FTP of 3.2-3.9w/kg
• C category – FTP of 2.5-3.1w/kg
• D category – FTP of 1-2.4w/kg

When racers registered as C finish a race over 20 minutes long at greater than 5%, or 3.25 w/kg, they should automatically be bumped to the B standings, or just DQ'd (known as a UPG in ZwiftPower). ZwiftPower already ranks Zwifters so the ranking system is in place. If you finish an FTP test or a race Zwift should then assign you an FTP for the next 30 days -- the same way they log your best time on Zwift segments for 30 days. During this time if a B ranked rider tries to sign up for a C or D Zwift (race only), it won't allow them to. It will allow them to race in B or a higher category such as A category. This is not tough code to write and/or implement.

I'm not crazy about "w/kg" being the Fundamental Law of Everything in the Zwift-universe (which is why the 1st overall ranked C rider on ZwiftPower is a 9-year-old that weighs 26 kg) but for better or worse it's the Law and we have to live with. So my request is to kindly and simply enforce this rule. If a rider signs up in the C category and finishes with a 4.0 w/kg avg they should be DQ'd or bumped up to the next standing. This is something Zwift can easily control. If I sign up for an Ironman I have to race in the 45-49 Male AG because I'm a 46 year old Male. I can't simply choose to race in the 65-70 Female Category. But that's exactly what we have going on with Zwift racing; especially in the D and C categories. It's clear as day in the Zwift race standings day in and day out -- racers racing egregiously out of category.

What you Mr. Kickr and other ST posters are referring to is Zwifters not abiding by the "Honor System". The "Honor System" includes submitting your proper weight, height and calibrating your equipment properly. These are things I unfortunately do not believe Zwift HQ can control; at least not till further down the road. Personally I live by the saying "to thy own self be true". I simply choose to be a person of high morals and ethics in all my affairs, including Zwifting. And from my personal experience, I've found the vast majority of Zwift riders actually do state their correct weight, height and calibrate their equipment correctly or at least using the Zwift or manufacturer-specific spin downs.

Unfortunately there are riders who do purposefully cheat and I honestly feel really bad for them. And I feel bad for riders like you who race at a high level but stopped because you knew it was happening and it ruined your race experience. Kudos to you for simply stopping racing rather than cheating. I think it's really terrible someone would lower their own standards or compromise their own beliefs to combat a cheat, because in then end it makes you no better than them. And not to say I'm perfect as in the heat of the moment I've done things I'm not proud of, lots of times! But I have never, and hope to never premeditate a scheme to cheat. And I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong and apologize. I'd rather be clean and lose, even to a cheat. Call me a corny square but I love the boy scout motto: Do Your Best. I'm preaching and rambling now -- sorry!!

There are a number of admittedly good reasons why it hasn't been rolled out more broadly. I actually wrote the code that does the "green cone." But there are some significant limitations with it which is why it hasn't been rolled out more broadly. I originally built it as an interim step to a larger system that was shelved; so now we're doing the work to figure out what needs to be done to actually make this a more complete feature.

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Thank you for your efforts on that project! And thank you for the communication here on the ST board. It's genuinely appreciated.

I think It is sad to see many people have already posted on this thread that they stopped Zwift Racing for reasons stated in this thread. I haven't though about quitting, but I have taken breaks from racing due to frustration. Maybe the small easy win is to simply implement some ZP Ranked races only. Simply take the guts of the existing ZP platform, as is, and integrate it (or directly link it if that's faster/easier). If you want to do a ZP ranked race you gotta be on ZP and have a ranking... and you can only race upward from your assigned A/B/C/D rank. And assign a few race series like USA Cycling or Kalas series to this system.

I've no joke been in USA Cycling Series races where an A+ (yes A Plus) rider signed up for a C category race. There's nothing stopping them. They lead out their C category friends on planned attacks and then end their race. That's how competitive it gets. I don't want to stop Zwift racing. Please try your best to do something. Whatever the lowest hanging fruit is there to enact change, let's grab it. I think it might bring back some of these Zwifters who have stopped racing and are just training, and then before long they just might cancel. I think a small win would encourage people to see things are moving in the right direction and re-ignite the Zwift racing fire!

Just had a quick thought on helping to resolve one of the racing issues mentioned in this thread - Trainer calibration. Couldn't this be accomplished by requiring a quick spin-down calibration just prior to the race, while corralled, waiting for the "flag to drop"? Racers would need to arrive early enough to get this done, or they're not allowed to race.

---

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

You are mistaking Zwift for a company that actually takes action about anything. Zwift drags its feet on pretty much every community complaint, including this one. I don't see them changing and I would be really surprised if this was addressed in even two years time.

I think the Zwift upper management are just trying to get the company to look attractive enough to be bought out so they can retire with a big payday. I don't think they really care whether the service exists long-term.

So for them, it is all about getting lots of new users into the system to up their subscription numbers. Long-term user retention doesn't seem to be as important.

You may be right, but I sincerely hope you're wrong. Maybe I'm a naive, eternal optimist but I believe the Zwift HQ will surprise us before year-end and make some basic changes that simply keep the correct riders in the correct w/kg category.

Hopefully Jordan will have an update of some kind... soon.

That's just another unverifiable / honor system to be exploited by those that don't care about fairness.

Well, I did just this earlier today, and Zwift erroneously applied a larger offset.

Garmin showing me doing ~390 W; Zwift showing me doing ~300 W. I had to restart to get the numbers match up, but this meant that I had to quit the race I wanted to do.

Today was the final race of the USA Cycling Virtual Race League Road Races/ Crit Series. And of course a ZwiftPower A Rider joined the C category and attacked over and over again. One C slipped away with him and drafted within w/kg for the win. Myself and all the other riders in the front group weren't happy.

I don't understand why Zwift can't and hasn't implemented a rule where an A Rider simply cannot sign up for a B, C, or D race? The same way a Male Rider can't sign up for a Female Only race. It's not quantum physics. The A,B,C,D Zwift Race Categorization has been around since Summer of 2016. After four years why can't Zwift figure this out? It boggles my mind that there is such apathy from Zwift HQ concerning their own Racing platform.

Tuesday, 10/7 - 1:55 PM ET - USA Cycling Race League by Indoor Specialist (C category) and the Zwift leaderboard top 3 finished: 1st place: 3.9 w/kg 2nd place: 3.4 w/kg and 3rd place: 3.6 w/kg. This on the climbing course Muir and the Mountain with Epic KOM, Radio Tower that is easily over an hour race. So an A Rider and two B Riders on the C Category podium. One of them finished the the EPIC KOM in 23 mins. Needless to say the race dynamics were blown to bit on the first Titan Grove rollers due to these riders. Myself and several legit C riders were very frustrated.

Unfortunately, this is commonplace in C category racing on Zwift, from my experience. It's very typical of ALL C Races I've participated in, especially series races like USA Cycling, Kalas Cup, etc... I'll keep updating here and documenting it. Maybe something will change.

"ZWIFT HQ SUGGESTION BOX" ---> My suggestion is to please fix Zwift Racing. It's broken. Category B, A and even A+ (yes A PLUS!) constantly crash C Races and ruin the race dynamic for true C Racers like myself (83kg, 245 FTP = 2.95 w/kg). This is something riders have been experiencing and complaining about for close to half a decade. It's the big elephant in the room! Kind of like how Uncle Ed drinks every single night and passes out on the floor and pees himself. And every morning everyone just steps over Uncle Ed getting ready for work and school, pretending this is normal. It's time for an INTERVENTION. Let's address the elephant passed out in the middle of the room laying in his own urine. In short: PLEASE FIX ZWIFT RACING!!!! Zwift has the know-how, the resources, it's your Racing Categorized System you created on YOUR PLATFORM! Please, please, please do the right thing. Thank you :-)

Don’t you think you’re making a lot of big deal out of this? Yes I’m an A rider, I Zwift most of the times the A workouts and races but I’m not A+ enough to win those races, and sometimes I join B or C rides to have some company, have an easy ride, and to have fun (the social aspect of Zwift is to have fun indoor, right?), and yeah sometimes I sprint at the end when I have the legs. If It was an A event I see my name and position at the end, but if it is a B or C, I see a blank standings screen and I don’t feel either as a winner or a loser. Pretty much a similar feeling as I was riding with my local club where people of different levels join to the rides. Just saying, I’m trying to understand..

If you are a Cat-A racer who instigate in B and C-races, you are changing the dynamics of the race.

That you get a blank standing means nothing, as that’s post hoc. Comparing this to a club ride is not appropriate, b/c that’s by definition open to all-comers.

I get that but in real life I don’t see races happening by Cat other than Pros or Amateurs. But anyway, if I join B or C group rides, not races, would that be Ok with you guys?

Hi Guillermo. Thanks for joining the conversation and providing some insight from an A rider perspective. In the grand scheme of things maybe this isn't and shouldn't be a big deal: "riders racing in the wrong category". But for me, personally and based off my experience, it is. And I'll explain why.

For one, there are individual workouts, training programs, group rides and even Virtual Pacers now on Zwift. So if your an A or B rider who wants an honest tempo ride, but doesn't feel like going full gas and being on the rivet, there are A LOT of options other than joining a lower race.

Second, if an A or B racer joined a C race and just kept their effort between 2.5 and 3.1 w/kg -- the prescribed C category pace I probably wouldn't mind, care, or even notice! But from my 130+ Zwift races in the last two years this is very rarely the case. At some point, sometimes at the very beginning or usually within the first third of the race, the A/B riders attack over and over again. Many times they solo away with a legit C rider in-tow. Often they decimate the field from their attacks. On hillier or rolling courses I've blown up trying to maintain contact with the front group due to an A or B riding attacking.

Third, these are races. I like to enter Race Series where points are accrued. I train for these specific races. I take appropriate rest and have tapered for some races. One race in particular was the Kalas Cup final series race where riders had A and A+ teammates coordinate specific attacks and then the A and A+ riders purposefully drop out of the race before the finish.

Fourth, I do think a lot of A and B riders do join a C race cause they maybe a little fatigued or tired, and do plan to "go easy". But we all know what ends up happening when you're in a Race. You Race!! You get caught up. The competitive juices flow. It's human nature.

Fifth, it's the PRINCIPLE. Zwift set up Zwift Races based on w/kg in A,B,C,D categorizations for a reason. So it's a fair and level Racing environment. At an Ironman Event as a 46 year-old man I just can't go and sign up for the 74-79 AG cause I feel like it. If I were a heavyweight boxer at 200 lbs I couldn't just fight a featherweight, cause I felt like it. If Zwift just wants to allow everyone to race in one single category, then eliminate the A,B,C,D categorization system. Cause signing up using the honor system isn't working.

Lastly, with the Pandemic their is no IRL racing so personally I take my Zwift racing a lot more serious. As I know many Zwifters do! Now is the time for Zwift to shine and bring some integrity to the Zwift Racing Platform.

And to be honest, my guess is if Zwift doesn't address this another virtual racing platform will. And myself and many other paying customers will likely be moving our business to a platform that ensures riders are Racing in their appropriate category.

pretty sure for group rides it's all comers. the category designation for a group ride is the intended pace. a C group ride may be easy for an A/B rider, and tough for a D rider, but all are welcome. races should be different, as in an A shouldn't ride a B race if looking for an "easier" workout. as other have stated, it would affect the outcome and dynamics of the race. and i put "easier" in quotes, because we all know the front end of the B category should be racing A in the first place... but that is a different thread.

I am new to Zwift this year and have done about 20 races as a B. My FTP is just over 4.0W per kilo (says Zwift) 275W at 68kg. And usually I am finishing in the bottom half of the field.

Usually a race goes like this:

5 minutes in the red zone 4.5+ w/kg to hang with the 1st group

Pace settles down to 3.5-4 w/kg for 5 minutes, this feels ok.

Wait- a hill, people start popping out 6+w/kg, I'm off the back before I know it. And there's no coming back.

Get caught by the second group but I'm dead from the 1st 5 minutes of effort & when people start playing the hill game get dropped by this group too.

Finish with 3rd group, at first I was getting outsprinted but then I realised I needed to start upping the W with 1km to go and can usually stay away.

This is not a complaint, I find it enjoyable & good training.

When I look at the results later, the winners haven't usually produced more W/kg than me. Maybe they are bigger guys who produced more W overall, and that favoured them? Or maybe they were smarter with their really big efforts and didn't let a break get away.

I'm also a "high" B with a 95% of 20:00 power a little north of 4.0 w/kg. Some times I get into a low A on zwift power. The issue is zwift racing has almost nothing to do with 20:00 power. Races are won on 15 second - 2:00 power output in most cases. Or rather 1:00 power followed by a 15 second burst of very high power. Obviously if you race up the side of a mountain its a little different. The A,B,C,D cat system needs a re-think. Cat A races sometimes ride the "easy" parts in the draft well north of 4.0 w/kg ... The delta from high B to A racing is significant. For the record I have done 77 races on zwift and will do a ton more in the future.

---

Ed Alyanak

I can't speak for the winners, but it sounds like you need better strategy and better training.

For the former, there's no reason why you should be doing close to 4.5 w/kg for five minutes (at least on courses with flat starts). The first minute should be decently hard, sometimes 5 w/kg for 90 seconds, other times 6 w/kg for a minute, but once you are inside the bunch, you can take things a bit more tranquillo at ~3.5 w/kg. Overall, the average for the first five minutes should be around 3.7-3.8 w/kg for someone at your mass (I'm quite comparable currently, probably FTP of 280 W at 69.5-70 kg). Don't hold back in the first 60-90 seconds, and when you are in, do all you could to conserve. If you are doing 4.5 w/kg, you've let the chase for joining the front group go on for too long.

For the latter, if a single 4.5 w/kg bout for 5 minutes is enough to see you get dropped, you aren't doing the right type of training needed for road racing (which is about 3-8 minute efforts, recovering from those efforts, and putting in another effort of that duration. From your post, it sounds like you aren't recovering at all, such that you are one-and-done. Then again, if you are a triathlete, you may not want to do a roadie's training. But if you want to do well in Zwift, those types of efforts will be needed.

The only time I needed to average over 4 w/kg for the first 10 minutes was a B-race with some 150+ sign ups and a lot of 80 kg+ types. They just drove it on the front, so that I needed to maintain ~95% FTP just to stay in the pack. Brutal.

The real grumble is that no real road race work this way, in the sense that those drafting really only needs to do ~70% of what those pulling are doing. On Zwift, one has to do ~80-85%. So still some drafting benefits, but greatly reduced and not nearly enough to allow one to recover.

Thanks for those tips, maybe I have some of the numbers wrong, will try those things out.

Just did a race up the Alpe, the winning B averaged 6.08 W/kg allegedly. Also their power was 219W so it seems like they weigh 36kg, LOL. I guess while that sort of stuff is going on the results don't matter much, it's just a fun way to get some exercise.

Just enter the category you are supposed to be in. Zwift can control this by having rule if race by on zwift power. I always race hard even when in mid pack as you have no idea if the people ahead will be filtered by ZP, they often are so you can get a place.

It is obvious when a good B or A is in a race and what happens is that a very good C will find those wheels and draft to victory with a lower average power but they spike quite a bit.

I spent most of my time in B racing back to back of the middle of pack. Spent some time away and was re categorised to C, fair enough. My power is right on the tipping point of going to B, and I have zero chance of ever winning a C race due to A and B people taking thier C mates to victory.

Accept its a simulation and it is what it is, but it is also really easy to fix

I don't know how they managed it, but Zwift seems to simultaneously have a weak draft and it's also really hard to break away. Those seems like they'd be exclusive of each other, but they're apparently not.

Though part of the difficulty in breaking away is the natural inclination towards negative racing in a field where you don't know most of the people. You have to treat everyone as a threat. I've found in some of the regular weekly series once everyone starts to know everyone else, then you can get somewhat more realistic racing dynamics.

I think the most unrealistic part is the reduction in effective group CdA when there are at least 7-10 people motoring. On flat ground, when that number of people is doing ~230-240 W, the group rides at ~44 kph on flat ground. That's an effective CdA of ~0.17, which is just insane.

However, if a lone rider were to be doing ~300 W, that rider would chug along at maybe 42 kph, for an effective CdA of ~0.25. Still quite unrealistic (one has to be quite aero to have a road position of 0.25), but at least a bit more realistic, although that's quite a low bar to clear. The real hilarity occurs when one tries to jump into a group where the front 10 is doing ~240 W, while one is motoring at 300 W, as one would find oneself going quite a bit back in that group, before the algorithm makes enough adjustment to lower the CdA enough to allow one to hang on to the group. Sheer madness.

'other than by pros or amateurs' - but that is 100% of races AFAIK.

So join a B or C GROUP ride and stay out of those races. Simple fix.