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Fix It! pedal/shoe edition
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this is where we're going to solve your pedal/shoe problems, which is a bigger deal than you think. i saw a thread pop up today on IT band flare-ups, and this may well originate (and may well be solved) at the pedal/shoe locale.

if it's your saddle that's a problem, we're solving that here. tied to this will be articles on the front page, such as the one just up in the last few minutes on how to correctly mount and use Speedplay pedals.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: May 7, 20 11:36
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I had a Northwave Sonic 2 plus shoe and had to stop using it since it caused me pain. I have a Hallux-valgus and it caused irritation on the big toe junction. I cut out a hole and this relaxes things somewhat :) Anyone got experience with finding a shoe with that problem? Go for a wide edition? (but my feet are actually not wide except at that one point) Or just increment the size a bit?
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [Alteisen] [ In reply to ]
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Alteisen wrote:
I had a Northwave Sonic 2 plus shoe and had to stop using it since it caused me pain. I have a Hallux-valgus and it caused irritation on the big toe junction. I cut out a hole and this relaxes things somewhat :) Anyone got experience with finding a shoe with that problem? Go for a wide edition? (but my feet are actually not wide except at that one point) Or just increment the size a bit?

Disclaimer: I am a dealer for Lake Cycling shoes.

I would look at Lake Cycling's sizing process and sizing charts, and then take a close look at the Lake CX241. That shoe is pretty innovative in the fit and designed to provide relief in the area of the first and fifth metatarsal heads. The website doesn't really do it justice, but the use of separate panels over the mesh body with the BOA enclosure, in conjunction with a heat-moldable heel allows for a really nice fit, and I think it has some potential for you. I would definitely avoid incrementing the size to get more width. Ideally, the shoe should provide a stable environment for the foot, and going longer destabilizes the foot position while coming up short on the additional width. Lake shoes, for example, gain 1 millimeter in width for each half size you go up. That's probably not going to get you what you need. I've had a customer who measured as a 40 wearing 46s because he was trying to get the width. We put him in a size 40 wide Lake and it changed his world.

I hope that helps!

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [Alteisen] [ In reply to ]
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The Lake shoe Travis mentioned is a great tip. If you can afford it, custom shoes are also definitely something to consider. Folks with this issue should also be aware of this device -

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
Last edited by: fredly: May 9, 20 11:05
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I've got a bizzare problem that hopefully someone can shed some light on.

No matter what shoe I use on the bike, I am finding that my right foot feels less connected than the left. The left feels like I have a full platform from heel to toe that's connected around the whole pedal cycle. The right feels like it's loosing contact with the back of my foot, as if the heel is floating in the shoe.

I have flat wide feet and the Shimano Rc9 shoes are set up with cleats far back, arch support such that they feel perfectly solid when off the bike. The boas are done up tightly enough and yet, as soon as I clip in, the solid feeling disappears. This happens on my other shoes as well.

I have tried more/less arch support, wedging under the heel, but I just can't seem to get it right. I have even got shims under my right foot to perhaps help with forcing the shoe up towards my feet. But this disconnect persists, and I can't think of a reason why.
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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Travis R wrote:
Alteisen wrote:
I had a Northwave Sonic 2 plus shoe and had to stop using it since it caused me pain. I have a Hallux-valgus and it caused irritation on the big toe junction. I cut out a hole and this relaxes things somewhat :) Anyone got experience with finding a shoe with that problem? Go for a wide edition? (but my feet are actually not wide except at that one point) Or just increment the size a bit?


Disclaimer: I am a dealer for Lake Cycling shoes.

I would look at Lake Cycling's sizing process and sizing charts, and then take a close look at the Lake CX241. That shoe is pretty innovative in the fit and designed to provide relief in the area of the first and fifth metatarsal heads. The website doesn't really do it justice, but the use of separate panels over the mesh body with the BOA enclosure, in conjunction with a heat-moldable heel allows for a really nice fit, and I think it has some potential for you. I would definitely avoid incrementing the size to get more width. Ideally, the shoe should provide a stable environment for the foot, and going longer destabilizes the foot position while coming up short on the additional width. Lake shoes, for example, gain 1 millimeter in width for each half size you go up. That's probably not going to get you what you need. I've had a customer who measured as a 40 wearing 46s because he was trying to get the width. We put him in a size 40 wide Lake and it changed his world.

I hope that helps!

Thanks for posting the link. My fiance' has feet that most resemble a duck and has found comfort with Lake shoes. We will further refine whether he needs wide or extra wide using tools you posted.

I have found great success riding in a midcleat postition. The down side for me though is the toe overlap and I must be cognizent to turn with pedals in the 12-6 position, otherwise I visit the pavement.

DFL > DNF > DNS
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [tmab2003] [ In reply to ]
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tmab2003 wrote:
I've got a bizzare problem that hopefully someone can shed some light on.

No matter what shoe I use on the bike, I am finding that my right foot feels less connected than the left. The left feels like I have a full platform from heel to toe that's connected around the whole pedal cycle. The right feels like it's loosing contact with the back of my foot, as if the heel is floating in the shoe.

I have flat wide feet and the Shimano Rc9 shoes are set up with cleats far back, arch support such that they feel perfectly solid when off the bike. The boas are done up tightly enough and yet, as soon as I clip in, the solid feeling disappears. This happens on my other shoes as well.

I have tried more/less arch support, wedging under the heel, but I just can't seem to get it right. I have even got shims under my right foot to perhaps help with forcing the shoe up towards my feet. But this disconnect persists, and I can't think of a reason why.

There are potentially a lot of things to look at, in your case. It would be very difficult to provide a useful answer without seeing you, so please take what I say next as just some things to think about, but I would consider a bike fit or maybe working with someone who knows functional movement.

From what you describe, you have a leg length discrepancy. That doesn't necessarily mean that you have one femur that is longer than the other, but just that your left side acts differently than your right, and your bike fit seems to be more optimal for your left. One thing that we all need to realize is that, as humans, we are asymmetrical by nature: we're right- or left-handed, and we tend to solidify our own asymmetrical throughout life. A baseball pitcher doesn't pitch every other inning with their non-dominant hand, and a soccer player isn't going to take a penalty kick with their non-dominant foot. We favor our strengths. Likewise, any traumas to the body in life - a broken bone, for example, causes us to subconsciously accommodate to avoid pain. Without guidance during the healing process (i.e., the insurance company doesn't cover physical therapy), we tend to change ourselves to be comfortable. A bicycle, because it is symmetrical, brings out the worst of everything.

In your case, on the bike, you are moving outside of your natural range of motion on the right side. You don't feel connected to the pedal because you're not - you're potentially overextending beyond your capabilities. That could be so many things - your feet might be different lengths (or have different volumes), which may mean the right shoe is too big and unable to really conform to the foot and provide a stable home for your foot. That foot's length - thinking of it as a lever - combined with the mobility of that ankle, might not be adequate to reach. It could be further up the chain - hamstrings, psoas, pelvic control, etc. That side just acts differently.

So, there are a couple of things I would think about, maybe on your next ride, and one thing to try:

1. Do you feel more pressure on one side of the saddle or the other? Does your saddle have more wear on one side? Is it level from side-to side?
2. Do you have any low back pain or soreness? Is it more one side or the other?
3. Listen to your calves - do you get tightness/cramping?
4. Try this: lower your saddle 2mm. Does that make you feel more connected on the right side? If so, does it create any pressure in the front of the left knee?

Also, the question I should have asked first: do you have any history of injury to your feet, lower extremities, knees, back, etc.? Anything from broken bones, to surgeries, to seemingly minor things like twisted or rolled ankles?

Let me know what you think!

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [SallyShortyPnts] [ In reply to ]
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SallyShortyPnts wrote:
Travis R wrote:
Alteisen wrote:
I had a Northwave Sonic 2 plus shoe and had to stop using it since it caused me pain. I have a Hallux-valgus and it caused irritation on the big toe junction. I cut out a hole and this relaxes things somewhat :) Anyone got experience with finding a shoe with that problem? Go for a wide edition? (but my feet are actually not wide except at that one point) Or just increment the size a bit?


Disclaimer: I am a dealer for Lake Cycling shoes.

I would look at Lake Cycling's sizing process and sizing charts, and then take a close look at the Lake CX241. That shoe is pretty innovative in the fit and designed to provide relief in the area of the first and fifth metatarsal heads. The website doesn't really do it justice, but the use of separate panels over the mesh body with the BOA enclosure, in conjunction with a heat-moldable heel allows for a really nice fit, and I think it has some potential for you. I would definitely avoid incrementing the size to get more width. Ideally, the shoe should provide a stable environment for the foot, and going longer destabilizes the foot position while coming up short on the additional width. Lake shoes, for example, gain 1 millimeter in width for each half size you go up. That's probably not going to get you what you need. I've had a customer who measured as a 40 wearing 46s because he was trying to get the width. We put him in a size 40 wide Lake and it changed his world.

I hope that helps!


Thanks for posting the link. My fiance' has feet that most resemble a duck and has found comfort with Lake shoes. We will further refine whether he needs wide or extra wide using tools you posted.

I have found great success riding in a midcleat postition. The down side for me though is the toe overlap and I must be cognizent to turn with pedals in the 12-6 position, otherwise I visit the pavement.

If you have any questions about the Lake shoe sizing, let me know (my contact info is in the link in my signature). Maybe we can do a Zoom meeting or something to navigate the different models. Because of their different lasts, and the models built on them, we have to take a very "fit first" approach with their shoes, but it's very helpful when it comes down to choosing the right model. It gets a bit confusing because the models built around the extra wide Race last (CX301, CX332, CX403) are narrower than the models built around the wide Competition last (CX218, CX238, CX241, TX223, TX322).

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Travis - thanks for the reply! I think I have read and watched almost all the material that there is online about bikefits, so this is not only a personal problem, but something that intrigues me as a bikefit problem overall =)

Quote:
1. Do you feel more pressure on one side of the saddle or the other? Does your saddle have more wear on one side? Is it level from side-to side?
- Yes, on the left side of the saddle usually.

Quote:
2. Do you have any low back pain or soreness? Is it more one side or the other?
- Usually on the lower left back.


Quote:
3. Listen to your calves - do you get tightness/cramping?
- I used to, but with more rearward cleat placement, I haven't in a very long time.

Quote:
4. Try this: lower your saddle 2mm. Does that make you feel more connected on the right side? If so, does it create any pressure in the front of the left knee?
- So what I have tried is to lower the saddle to an obviously low level, and tried to see if that improves connection; it didn't. Also, the feeling of disconnect persist when standing and pedalling as well, so I imagine it is at the foot/shoe/cleat/pedal interface that the problem lies in.

Quote:
Also, the question I should have asked first: do you have any history of injury to your feet, lower extremities, knees, back, etc.? Anything from broken bones, to surgeries, to seemingly minor things like twisted or rolled ankles?
- No lower body injuries, but I had a left shoulder AC joint separation in 2014 - it wasn't super bad though, because I think only one of the tendons had separated of the three. I have had lower back spasms on and off since that year, I am not sure if it was connected to the actual shoulder injury or this one time I pulled my back when I tried to pick up my twin nephew and niece at the same time :) Physio rehab has helped with quicker recoveries on the rare occasions that those muscles get tweaked again.

I did have two different bike fit sessions done over the last few years. Unfortunately, they didn't resolve my issues a 100%. I have had one fitter have my saddle way too high, and the second fitter shimmed my left foot to resolve the saddle pressure on the left, but I found shimming the right had better results in reducing that pressure and somewhat improving the "connectedness". Right now the shim is 4mm on the right.

Note on the foot lengths: my right foot is indeed shorter than my left: it is shorter by about 5mm.
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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Travis R wrote:
SallyShortyPnts wrote:
Travis R wrote:
Alteisen wrote:
I had a Northwave Sonic 2 plus shoe and had to stop using it since it caused me pain. I have a Hallux-valgus and it caused irritation on the big toe junction. I cut out a hole and this relaxes things somewhat :) Anyone got experience with finding a shoe with that problem? Go for a wide edition? (but my feet are actually not wide except at that one point) Or just increment the size a bit?


Disclaimer: I am a dealer for Lake Cycling shoes.

I would look at Lake Cycling's sizing process and sizing charts, and then take a close look at the Lake CX241. That shoe is pretty innovative in the fit and designed to provide relief in the area of the first and fifth metatarsal heads. The website doesn't really do it justice, but the use of separate panels over the mesh body with the BOA enclosure, in conjunction with a heat-moldable heel allows for a really nice fit, and I think it has some potential for you. I would definitely avoid incrementing the size to get more width. Ideally, the shoe should provide a stable environment for the foot, and going longer destabilizes the foot position while coming up short on the additional width. Lake shoes, for example, gain 1 millimeter in width for each half size you go up. That's probably not going to get you what you need. I've had a customer who measured as a 40 wearing 46s because he was trying to get the width. We put him in a size 40 wide Lake and it changed his world.

I hope that helps!


Thanks for posting the link. My fiance' has feet that most resemble a duck and has found comfort with Lake shoes. We will further refine whether he needs wide or extra wide using tools you posted.

I have found great success riding in a midcleat postition. The down side for me though is the toe overlap and I must be cognizent to turn with pedals in the 12-6 position, otherwise I visit the pavement.


If you have any questions about the Lake shoe sizing, let me know (my contact info is in the link in my signature). Maybe we can do a Zoom meeting or something to navigate the different models. Because of their different lasts, and the models built on them, we have to take a very "fit first" approach with their shoes, but it's very helpful when it comes down to choosing the right model. It gets a bit confusing because the models built around the extra wide Race last (CX301, CX332, CX403) are narrower than the models built around the wide Competition last (CX218, CX238, CX241, TX223, TX322).

That is a great idea! Let me work on getting that organized. And now my immediate problem is that I am (again) no longer recieving response notifcations from Slowtwitch :-(

DFL > DNF > DNS
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [tmab2003] [ In reply to ]
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tmab2003 wrote:
Hi Travis - thanks for the reply! I think I have read and watched almost all the material that there is online about bikefits, so this is not only a personal problem, but something that intrigues me as a bikefit problem overall =)

Quote:
1. Do you feel more pressure on one side of the saddle or the other? Does your saddle have more wear on one side? Is it level from side-to side?

- Yes, on the left side of the saddle usually.

Quote:
2. Do you have any low back pain or soreness? Is it more one side or the other?

- Usually on the lower left back.


Quote:
3. Listen to your calves - do you get tightness/cramping?

- I used to, but with more rearward cleat placement, I haven't in a very long time.

Quote:
4. Try this: lower your saddle 2mm. Does that make you feel more connected on the right side? If so, does it create any pressure in the front of the left knee?

- So what I have tried is to lower the saddle to an obviously low level, and tried to see if that improves connection; it didn't. Also, the feeling of disconnect persist when standing and pedalling as well, so I imagine it is at the foot/shoe/cleat/pedal interface that the problem lies in.

Quote:
Also, the question I should have asked first: do you have any history of injury to your feet, lower extremities, knees, back, etc.? Anything from broken bones, to surgeries, to seemingly minor things like twisted or rolled ankles?

- No lower body injuries, but I had a left shoulder AC joint separation in 2014 - it wasn't super bad though, because I think only one of the tendons had separated of the three. I have had lower back spasms on and off since that year, I am not sure if it was connected to the actual shoulder injury or this one time I pulled my back when I tried to pick up my twin nephew and niece at the same time :) Physio rehab has helped with quicker recoveries on the rare occasions that those muscles get tweaked again.

I did have two different bike fit sessions done over the last few years. Unfortunately, they didn't resolve my issues a 100%. I have had one fitter have my saddle way too high, and the second fitter shimmed my left foot to resolve the saddle pressure on the left, but I found shimming the right had better results in reducing that pressure and somewhat improving the "connectedness". Right now the shim is 4mm on the right.

Note on the foot lengths: my right foot is indeed shorter than my left: it is shorter by about 5mm.

Sorry for my slow reply. That's a lot of good information and you've already addressed most of what I was getting to. I think it might be worth taking a look at the heel area of your right shoe - get the shoe heel to hold the heel a bit better. I would remove any heel lift/wedges that you may have in there, if you haven't already. You could take some Moleskin pads (the little oval/circular ones) and put them on the inside of the shoe on either side of the Achilles (Anne Barnes gets the credit for that idea) to kind of fill the gaps there. Shimano's most recent RC9s don't support heat-molding anymore, if I am understanding correctly, so that's not an option, although it would be useful in your case.

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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I'll have to see if I can get some of that moleskin to stick on the cat-tongue fabric at the heel area. When I have the shoe on the ground though (walking), the heel seems to be pretty nicely locked in. I actually double checked the location of my metatarsals on the right vs the left, and it seems the arch length is shorter on the right. So I moved my cleat even farther back...I am almost wondering if I need a half size small on the right compared to the left! That would be a wallet/wife conflicting path to follow :)
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I am new to biking but I am getting pain in the outside of my right foot and on the ligament on the outside of the right knee. Maybe it could be my foot positioning or my shoes, I am not sure.
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Hi All,

I started to have lower back issues and was diagnosed with scoliosis and leg discrepancy (~15mm). What are the popular pedal/shoe options people use for gravel/MTB? I use speedplay on my Tri bike and and my fitter suggested we could temporarily address the issue with shims on the cleat, which I will do but I don't think this would work long-term and looking for other options.

Any suggestions are appreciated

Many thanks!
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [trihugger] [ In reply to ]
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trihugger wrote:
Hi All,

I started to have lower back issues and was diagnosed with scoliosis and leg discrepancy (~15mm). What are the popular pedal/shoe options people use for gravel/MTB? I use speedplay on my Tri bike and and my fitter suggested we could temporarily address the issue with shims on the cleat, which I will do but I don't think this would work long-term and looking for other options.

Any suggestions are appreciated

Many thanks!


two things i would say.

1. the problem i would be more reticent to solve is the leg length discrepancy. these are notoriously hard to ACCURATELY diagnose. furthermore, you do everything else with a leg length discrepancy, and your body adjusts. do you make any accommodation in your run shoes? and, no, even an orthotic doesn't account for this, because if you put a 15mm lift in your orthotic you couldn't even lace up that run shoe. so, i would be careful about solving this in your cycling. you would need to, first, make sure you really, truly, have that discrepancy, and you would need to know that you're not already normalizing for it. how would you normalize for it? sit a little off-kilter on the saddle. so, first, do no harm. first, make sure you want to solve for this.

2. if you do want to solve for it, you shim between the pedal and the shoe. you use wedges, that cant the shoe (varus or valgus). you use X number of wedges, stacked on top of each other, and half the wedges are varus canted and half are valgus, so that net sum is simply to raise your shoe off the cleat.

in most cases, if you do go that route, fitters will recommend a partial sum of the total discrepancy. maybe a third, or half. so, maybe you go 7.5mm of lift on the short leg side.

this is the method regardless of pedal. speedplay's sizr pedal has different factory-built lift options.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Jun 16, 20 10:47
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I have discomfort in the lateral metatarsal/ phalangeal area on my right foot. I have a pair of Pearl Izumi Select Rd from 2016 that don’t hurt very bad but aren’t perfect. Much worse are some Pearl Izumi Elite V5 and Giro Savix that are very uncomfortable. I added 20mm pedal extensions at the recommendation of a bike fitter. No help. I’ve also added 1 Degree wedges for a 1, 2, and 3 degree stack toward the medial side. I even tried 1 degree to the lateral side just to see if it would help. Shoes are still uncomfortable. No leg or knee pain.

I appreciate any help.
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Re: Fix It! pedal/shoe edition [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Travis R wrote:
tmab2003 wrote:
Hi Travis - thanks for the reply! I think I have read and watched almost all the material that there is online about bikefits, so this is not only a personal problem, but something that intrigues me as a bikefit problem overall =)

Quote:
1. Do you feel more pressure on one side of the saddle or the other? Does your saddle have more wear on one side? Is it level from side-to side?

- Yes, on the left side of the saddle usually.

Quote:
2. Do you have any low back pain or soreness? Is it more one side or the other?

- Usually on the lower left back.


Quote:
3. Listen to your calves - do you get tightness/cramping?

- I used to, but with more rearward cleat placement, I haven't in a very long time.

Quote:
4. Try this: lower your saddle 2mm. Does that make you feel more connected on the right side? If so, does it create any pressure in the front of the left knee?

- So what I have tried is to lower the saddle to an obviously low level, and tried to see if that improves connection; it didn't. Also, the feeling of disconnect persist when standing and pedalling as well, so I imagine it is at the foot/shoe/cleat/pedal interface that the problem lies in.

Quote:
Also, the question I should have asked first: do you have any history of injury to your feet, lower extremities, knees, back, etc.? Anything from broken bones, to surgeries, to seemingly minor things like twisted or rolled ankles?

- No lower body injuries, but I had a left shoulder AC joint separation in 2014 - it wasn't super bad though, because I think only one of the tendons had separated of the three. I have had lower back spasms on and off since that year, I am not sure if it was connected to the actual shoulder injury or this one time I pulled my back when I tried to pick up my twin nephew and niece at the same time :) Physio rehab has helped with quicker recoveries on the rare occasions that those muscles get tweaked again.

I did have two different bike fit sessions done over the last few years. Unfortunately, they didn't resolve my issues a 100%. I have had one fitter have my saddle way too high, and the second fitter shimmed my left foot to resolve the saddle pressure on the left, but I found shimming the right had better results in reducing that pressure and somewhat improving the "connectedness". Right now the shim is 4mm on the right.

Note on the foot lengths: my right foot is indeed shorter than my left: it is shorter by about 5mm.


Sorry for my slow reply. That's a lot of good information and you've already addressed most of what I was getting to. I think it might be worth taking a look at the heel area of your right shoe - get the shoe heel to hold the heel a bit better. I would remove any heel lift/wedges that you may have in there, if you haven't already. You could take some Moleskin pads (the little oval/circular ones) and put them on the inside of the shoe on either side of the Achilles (Anne Barnes gets the credit for that idea) to kind of fill the gaps there. Shimano's most recent RC9s don't support heat-molding anymore, if I am understanding correctly, so that's not an option, although it would be useful in your case.

I had this problem with my left foot. Many shoes, insoles (off-shelf, custom, modular) - nothing works. I felt like the my forefoot and heel can't reach the insole and bouncing up and down. Regardless of arch support, heel wedges and other.

The issue that I found in my left foot is outside of arch area - plain and rigid. When I removed insoles I immediately noticed the pressure in this area in left foot in comparison to right. The feel was very light and nearly unnoticeable with insoles. I added heel lift pad (about 3 mm) and issue gone. Note that heel lift pad is more thick in the rear than in the front. This helps reduce shoe heel lift.
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